Episode 7 - Mosin Nagant

[RichardInFlorida]

Doc,

I recently found your podcast and I have been enjoying it immensely!  I definitely appreciate the time you obviously put into producing the shows.

Going back through some of the previous episodes, I found #7, where you detailed quite a bit of information on the Mosin Nagant rifles.  Though this episode is costing me money (as I just ordered two of the M44's), I have to say I enjoyed all of the information you provided on the rifles.  At the very least, you taught me how to properly pronounce "Nagant".

I normally delete podcasts once I listen to them, but episode #7 has found a long-term home on my hard drive.

Thanks again, and keep up the good work!

Richard

[Doc Wesson]

Richard,
GOOD MAN!! Glad to have you in the Mosin family now!
AND, thank you for the wonderful comments!  That is what keeps us going!
Yes.. the Mosin is a fabulous find!  YOU GOT 2?   
Excellent!!  I, like you, have found them to be unreal when it comes to value.  I mean.. how else can you get .308/.30-06 performance for under $100?
Everyone should have at least 1 variety of the Mosins.  I keep one in the car trunk as well with 25 rounds of soft tip and 25 rounds of the steel core surplus... you never know when you will need the penetration    And if someone steals it.. I am not out much...
Are you a surplus man?  Have any other?
I am planning on an upcoming episode on doing a surplus roundup, to include Long Guns as well as Sidearms.
Thanks again for the feedback!  Enjoy those M44s!!!  Oh, if you see the M44 shooting a bit off at 100 yds.. put the bayonet out.. They are typically sighted with the pig sticker deployed!
Thanks again!!!
Doc

[RichardInFlorida]

YOU GOT 2?

For less than $100/each, yes!     I recall looking at Makarov's, SKS's, and all sorts of other guns in the Shotgun News a few years back and thinking "Wow, those are great prices...I'll have to buy a few some day."  Some day never got here, and the -really- good deals have gone away...

I like the history of surplus guns, but I also could not ignore the great 30-06 type performance out of the Mosin either.  It might be nice to take one of these into the field for hunting.

I've got a few other surplus guns.  I have an East German Makarov my father bought me back in the early 90's.  It is a nice shooter in really good condition.  I also have a Norinco SKS.  I've been thinking about a Yugo Mauser or Finnish Mosin, but as much as my wife enjoys shooting, she does have veto power. 

Richard

[Doc Wesson]

LOL... Wifey Syndrome
I have hunted with the Mosin M38 with soft points....
It will flat put one down..
I shot one at about 230 yards.  It went straight down.  Upon inspection, it blew out the heart.  Nice big exit hole.
On that M38 I put a scope scout mount on it and a long eye relief 3-9x.  Deadly combo.  That particular M38 was counter bored, probably due to crown erosion, but still shoots right at 1 MOA at 100... outstanding!!!  Especially from a rifle that cost me $60.  If every law abiding citizen had one of these... talk about a MILITIA!!!  BUT... if everyone bought one... then they wouldn't be so inexpensive, now would they... 
Yes... I love Maks... another fantastic bargain.  With a C&R you can get this stuff shipped right to your door.  I will do an episode on obtaining a C&R... hopefully it will spur more interest in it.

[RichardInFlorida]

I shot one at about 230 yards.  It went straight down.  Upon inspection, it blew out the heart.  Nice big exit hole.

Very nice.  I figured the M-N would be a solid performer, but I'm definitely happy to hear a first hand account.

I picked up my C&R earlier this year, and the M44's are my first purchase using it.  Well, first firearm purchase with it.  Once I discovered Brownell's offered a discount for C&R holders...well, let's just say my AR has enough of the Brownell mags to last it for a long time.

I think a show about the C&R is a great idea.  Plus, I like hearing about some of the other surplus finds out there.

Richard

[RichardInFlorida]

Doc,

I just got the Mosins delivered last night.  I can't believe that I bought two rifles in such great condition for only $69/each!  They are in great condition, the bores look fine, and...all the numbers match on them.  It is clear these rifles have been carried by soldiers from a different era...history seems to ooze from them.

I'll be taking them out in the next few days to see how they shoot.

The down side to all of this is I now want to pick up some more.  Maybe a nice '30? 

Richard

[Eric R Shelton]

Ok, ok!  I'll cave and get a Mosin!  lol.  But serioulsy, I have a bit of a noob question- what's a C&R?

[RichardInFlorida]

Ok, ok!  I'll cave and get a Mosin!  lol.  But serioulsy, I have a bit of a noob question- what's a C&R?

C&R is a Curios and Relics license issued by the ATF.  In effect it is a Federal Firearms License that allows you to ship and receive firearms that have been classified as a curio or relic for the purposes of collecting.  A lot of the imported surplus firearms (SKS, Mausers, Mosins, Makarovs, etc.) are deemed C&R.  This means that you can buy online and have it shipped to your front door.  No dealers costs, background checks, etc.

The license is also called an FFL-03.  It does not allow you to buy and sell as a business, just as a collector.

Buying directly from AIM Surplus, J&G, Century, etc. saves you a few dollars.  Also, a nice side benefit is that some companies give you the dealer discount for a C&R license.  Brownell's offers nice discounts, as does Graf and Sons, and others.

[Doc Wesson]

Richard... well said on the C&R.
I am excited about your new history you have there...
Sounds like they shipped you some good ones. 
Where did you order them from?  AIM?  Century?
There is a place here in NC that ships at good prices too...
http://classicarms.us

Think I will watch Enemy at the Gates again tonight in your honor!!!!

I am going to devote a show to surplus and C&R so Eric.. I hope it will help out.
You can get some handguns under -03 as well.  (C&R-03 license that is).  Like the Nagant revolvers and I think Maks and Toks are covered.  It is a wonderful to have them shipped by brown to the house!!!!  Avoid tax....

C&R costs like $30.. and look what you can get for having one!!!

Everyone should have a Mosin!!!

Richard, how much x54R did you get with it?  Did you get surplus?  If so what country?  Look at the markings on the tip if you don't know and I can tell you.  Steel core is the most available... it goes through anything!!!
They are Berdan primed so consider them as corrosive (probably only mild).  Best thing I have found to do is, when you are finished shooting, take a bottle of Windex with Ammonia in it and spray in the bbl and swab out until dry.. do it again and swab, then clean as normal with nitro and oil.

How was the cosmoline?  Much in it?  If so, get a cheap hand held steamer at Wally World and that will melt cosmo right off, cleans in the nooks and crannies too...

I expect a range  rpt after shootin!!!
I love it!!!!

So...serious about the '30?  Go man... Go!!

[Eric R Shelton]

Ok, I just listened to this episode and I'm applying for my C&R!  One of my pals already has one and says it's a great deal.
I'll prob'ly go for an M44 just because they seem so much more available.  Was gonna go with Century because I'm familiar with them and then I can get an SKS, too!   

Any advice on who else to shop from?  Can the x54R be reloaded?  It's not steel case like Wolf 7.62x39, is it?

[RichardInFlorida]

Ok, I just listened to this episode and I'm applying for my C&R!  One of my pals already has one and says it's a great deal.
I'll prob'ly go for an M44 just because they seem so much more available.  Was gonna go with Century because I'm familiar with them and then I can get an SKS, too!   

Any advice on who else to shop from?  Can the x54R be reloaded?  It's not steel case like Wolf 7.62x39, is it?

I picked up my M44's from Aim Surplus at $70/each.  Shipping was quick and I am pleased with my purchasing 'experience'.  J&G has the 44's at about $100, but the M30's at $70.  I've struggled with the Century log-in system, so I don't know what their prices are.  ClassicArms.us seems to have some good items at competitive prices also. 

The ammo I picked up is steel cased, but Winchester, Norma, Wolf, and S&B all manufacture new, reloadable stuff.  The best deal on commercial stuff I have found is over at Graf and Sons.  With the C&R discount, Privi 150gr soft point can be had for $11.59/box of 20.  It's brass cased and boxer primed.  I'm thinking about picking some of that up to shoot and then reload.

Definitely get your C&R!  It took only about 3-4 weeks to get mine back and is only $30.  With the discounts Brownells gives, I made that back on my first order! 

Richard

[RichardInFlorida]

Doc,

I love these guns...opening the shipping cartons was a bit like Christmas as a kid.  I know I've got something good in there, but I don't know what.  It looks like both of my M44s were late WWII or early post-war models based on the markings and other bits I have been able to match over at 7.62x54R.net.  Both have been refinished, of course, and counterbored.  As soon as I get the time, I plan on slugging the barrels to see what the exact bore diameter is.  I haven't reloaded in years, but I am excited to work up some loads for these guns.

The action is pretty darn smooth for a Soviet made rifle manufactured some 60 or so years ago.  The trigger, though heavy compared to a modern commercial rifle, is also smooth.  It is certainly MUCH smoother than the SKS I have!

Both have a good bit of cosmo on them, but nothing outrageous.  A buddy of mine at work suggested disassembly and then using pouring hot water through the metal parts.  Much like the steam suggestion you made, I guess the cosmo is supposed to come right off due to the heat.  Of course, since I live in Florida, I may just leave the guns in my car, barrel down on a towel, and just let the cosmo run right off in the afternoon heat.

The ammo I bought is supposed to be Russian manufacture from the 70's or 80's.  I decided to leave it all in the spam-cans in case I need to bury it in the back yard some day.    So, I am going to have to pick up some more cheap stuff just for fun.

I was thinking about trying to sporterize one of these guns, but I don't know if I can do that.  The history in these rifles is awesome.  My wife, who likes guns and shooting but has never seemed terribly excited about new guns, is really liking these.  I think they are the right combination of price, function, and history.  And with that, I think I must order a 91/30. 

Richard

[Eric R Shelton]

Just a quick question- Doc, why do you like the M38 over the M44?

Okay, TWO questions.  Richard, what do you mean by "sporterize" one of them?

[RichardInFlorida]

Richard, what do you mean by "sporterize" one of them?

Change it from its original condition to something more suitable for the firearms sports (hunting, target shooting, etc).  In this case I was thinking about swapping the stock out for a synthetic stock in the Monte Carlo configuration, drilling/tapping for a scope, and bending the bolt handle so it would work with a scope.

The pros to this are fairly obvious.  The cons are I can't undo the drilling/tapping/bending and the rifles do have historical significance.

I did some aftermarket stuff to a Norinco SKS, but never felt bad about it.  It was an unissued weapon that didn't have any special history associated with it.  The Mosin Nagants, on the other hand, have certainly played a significant role in history.  Changing one that fought the Nazis at Stalingrad or Kursk, took Berlin, or freed Auschwitz...well, that doesn't seem right.

Maybe I just need to buy a lot of the rifles to preserve so I can feel ok about changing one?    I hope my wife isn't reading this!

Richard

[Doc Wesson]

Hey guys..
Just got back from GA.
First things First....
MOSIN BABY...
now... Richard,if you got Russian ammo,  what weight?  Steel core?  That steel stuff goes through anything at that power level.
I shot an ESAPPI plate with one and it went thru like a hot knife thru butter, then zipped through the kevlar panel I had in back... zip......
That stuff rocks.. The "brass" is lacquer coated.. so you may experience some sticking of the spent shell.. while hot brush the crap out of it with nitro... I put a brush on a drill and "drilled" the chamber while hot.. no real sticking problem now.  Don't for get the windex.

On ammo.. Don't let anyone tell you different... this round can and I shoot them this way.. be loaded up to .30-06 standards.  The regular store bought can give you ballistics between the .308 Win and the -06, but it can handle the pressure with the cartridge design and does...  one powerful puppy. And with that design, reduces head space thus increasing accuracy, in my opinion, over the -06.

Eric, If you want to shoot volume.. buy the sardine cans, or spam cans as Richard calls them.  They are great for fun shoots.. if you want to hunt get some of the Winchester, S&B or Norma.  They are expensive, but great. That brass can be reloaded and plugged with Boxer.  As for Wolf.. I think.. but need to check on it.. the standard wolf is steel cased.. HOWEVER, the GOLD line is brass and boxer, thus worthy.. They come in soft point and they are absolute HECK on deer.  The x54R will take anything on this continent. It has been done.

I prefer the 38 over the 44 because of a couple of things.. 1 the 38 (carbine) was the first original "authentic" carbine of the mosins.. they did take some of the dragoons and cut the tubes down to carbine length, but they weren't born thataway.. the 38s were. T
Another reason is the 38s came prior to the 44s.. more history.
And lastly, the 38s were sighted as buy it.  The 44s with the pig sticker, were sighted with the bayonet deployed.  With the bayo retracted, all 44s I have shot at 100 or more yards shoot off in the same manner, until I deploy the sticker.  I have heard and read others to back the claim as well... not to say that all 44s do that though... so I guess your mileage may vary...that being said .. you can easily just adjust the front sight if you wish. But I, like my man Richard, want to keep them as close to the way they were when being transported on the munition riddled boats across the Volga. 
But I do have 44s and they DO THE JOB...  Get one and keep it in the car..  for good measure.

Richard, yes slug it out and let me know.. I am pretty sure the round is .311.. .308 caliber can be used.. but with a decrease in accuracy.  Me thinks.

Can't you just FEEL THE LOVE...........

[RichardInFlorida]

The ammo I got is called "light ball."  I'm guessing that puts it in the 150gr region, but no idea what the core may be.  The link to exactly what I got is here:  http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Russian_1980_s_7.62x54R_FMJ.html

[Eric R Shelton]

I've read about the bayonet issue with the M44's too.  Ok, last question until the C&R episode:
Any downside to going with a 91/30 instead of a carbine?

[Doc Wesson]

No sir... only size.. and speed.
Get one of both.
I have multiple of many....
Dragoons (91/30) are very abundant as well.
 

[Doc Wesson]

Richard,
Those are Steel Core.. try to shoot at something metal.. and watch the sparks.. it is amazing...
Yes Light Ball generally runs about 148gr. traveling close to 2700 fps.  The flame throwing in a carbine (38 or 44) is phenomenal!  Massive flame...
And the report will wake you up!!!
Those are good rounds.  I like the russian stuff...  If the pictures are right, the can is what I think it is.. but, typically LBSC has a silver tip.  Does it have a silver tip?

[RichardInFlorida]

Richard,
Those are Steel Core.. try to shoot at something metal.. and watch the sparks.. it is amazing...
Yes Light Ball generally runs about 148gr. traveling close to 2700 fps.  The flame throwing in a carbine (38 or 44) is phenomenal!  Massive flame...
And the report will wake you up!!!
Those are good rounds.  I like the russian stuff...  If the pictures are right, the can is what I think it is.. but, typically LBSC has a silver tip.  Does it have a silver tip?

I don't know...I haven't opened the can up!  I am a little hesitant to open the can just because it appears to be weather resistant (i.e.  will survive a hurricane, being buried in the back yard, etc.)  I think I will order up another can for shooting.  I'm getting ready to order some of the Privi stuff that is brass/boxer primed.  Then I can whip up some reloads for it.

Of course, I am infected by the Mosin fever now.  I want a 91/30 and after seeing your post about the 38...well of course I need one of those too.  Then I discover there are hex AND round receivers...  Oh no...