CC vs OC

[ChillyWilly]

Tossing this out for a discussion topic -

Bob has mentioned many times how he is a little bit on the fence about Open Carry.  Certainly we all can agree it is (or should be, depending which state you're in) part of our 2nd amendment rights, but... the fact is, in today's environment it can freak people out, and may actually have back-fired in California.

So, that has me thinking about where we, sensible practical gun owners, should be urging our politicians and alphabet groups to be going.  In other words, what are the battles we should be fighting?  Bob mentions he likes that OC exists in case he accidentally exposes his CCW he won't be in trouble - but how about this:

I propose the next milestone goals should be nationwide CCW reciprocity and clear language stating that inadvertant exposure is not grounds for "brandishment." 

It's one new thing, that only missed by 2 votes last time, and a "tweak" to existing CCW laws.  And think about how much we gain toward "normalizing".

Thoughts?

[Devereaux]

I would like to see the national reciprocity pass with the understanding that brandishing must have intent to threaten or intimidate behind the act.

+1. Exactly.

National CCW based on the 2nd Amendment would be the ultimate goal, and no license or permit. We shouldn't have to ask the government to be allowed to carry weapons for our protection.

[Bob Mayne]

Good points, I would agree that a "National Concealed Carry License" and preferably no concealed carry license ever needed, is more important than Open Carry. 

[Embershot]

I would like to see the national reciprocity pass with the understanding that brandishing must have intent to threaten or intimidate behind the act.

Exactly what I was thinking. +1

[ChillyWilly]

Great.  Yes, NS2 worded it better than I did, but that's the idea.

Does anyone know of any states in which the CC law does specifically define brandishment?  If someone else has it, it makes it that much easier to propose to our local lawmakers. 

I'm in Virginia, where OC mostly moots the "inadvertant exposure" issue, but I do go to Florida often, where my CCW is recognized, but it's not an OC state.

[Bob Mayne]

Just thought I would let you know what happened yesterday.  I was at the UPS store near my house and a guy was in there at the counter.  As I walked in I saw him turn about 90 degrees, lift up his shirt, then readjust his 1911 in his holster then draped his shirt back over it.  I smiled, and when the UPS clerk was in the back, taping up the guy's  box I whispered to him..."nice 1911 you got there." (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)  A huge GRIN  came over his face and I said..."don't worry, I'm packing my Glock 19 and no one but me saw you do that."

Then the UPS clerk came back to the counter, so we both stayed quiet, did our business and left separately. 

It made me think of this thread...technically he was brandishing by Texas law.  What a bogus law.  Perhaps we do need open carry.

[ChillyWilly]

I was digging through the Florida Firearms Law book, and they discuss this a little bit.  The law has a lot of weaselly words in it, but it looks like if you did not have "threatening intent" or something like that, you probably would be OK.  The author, a Florida lawyer, seemed to think so, but noted there was no real case law precedent.  Clearer wording would definitely help in the "OMG he's got a gun!" calls type situation.

You know, cause I'm worried about my M&P40 printing through my Speedo...   

[Pocono]

Tossing this out for a discussion topic -

Bob has mentioned many times how he is a little bit on the fence about Open Carry.  Certainly we all can agree it is (or should be, depending which state you're in) part of our 2nd amendment rights, but... the fact is, in today's environment it can freak people out, and may actually have back-fired in California.

So, that has me thinking about where we, sensible practical gun owners, should be urging our politicians and alphabet groups to be going.  In other words, what are the battles we should be fighting?  Bob mentions he likes that OC exists in case he accidentally exposes his CCW he won't be in trouble - but how about this:

I propose the next milestone goals should be nationwide CCW reciprocity and clear language stating that inadvertant exposure is not grounds for "brandishment." 

It's one new thing, that only missed by 2 votes last time, and a "tweak" to existing CCW laws.  And think about how much we gain toward "normalizing".

Thoughts?

I think the idea that it can "freak people out" may be overblown. CA's efforts to ban open carry is nothing more than a leftist government effort to trample on the Constitution. I don't consider exercising a right that the government is hell-bent on taking away as backfiring. I am all in favor of national reciprocity and think it's a reasonable expectation since it has to do with interstate travel. I hope everyone here is involved with their local lobby groups in order to fight the fight for sensible laws and have senseless laws repealed.

On the other hand - if we can get National Constitutional Carry passed then reciprocity becomes a non-issue 

[Matt G]

While I am not a big fan of open carry, i do so occasionally.  I understand the points presented but I am afraid we will paint ourselves into a corner when we give up small points here and there to support our goal.  I someone is "Freaked out" because I am carrying a weapon, something that I am guaranteed to do in the 2nd Amendment, it’s on THEM to get over it.  Whittling away the right and creating limitations isn’t the answer.

Matt G

[Pocono]

I've been CC'ing for a long time and OC'ing for just over a year on a regular basis in two different states - and hopefully a third soon. OC is not the best mode of carry for all situations especially from a (dare i say it) "tactical" advantage. But then again there are many times I specifically OC in order for it to act as a deterant and also to give me the quickest access to the weapon should I need it. Again, it all comes down to time and place.

I don't think any less of a gun owner who believes OC is a bad idea, however they should not criticize those that do OC.

Admittedly there are many times where I force myself to open carry and it's really for two reasons; one to desensitize the sheeple and two in order to exercise my right - thus making it harder for them to take it away. The more of them we convince that guns and gun owners are not evil the easier our political fight will be, in my opinion.

I have had lots of people ask if I am a LEO, but never had anyone do "the freak."

[ChillyWilly]

Thanks for the thoughts Pocono and Matt G,

To clarify - by no means do I suggest "giving up" any right to OC, nor did I suggest any limitations.  My initial message referred to how we ought to be focusing our battles.  It seems that in the current environment, calling attention to OC as a battle to be fought doesn't seem to be "tactical priority" over getting nationwide, reciprocal, shall-issue CC.

I live in northern Virginia, close to DC, where we have shall-issue CC, and statewide OC.  But, Fairfax County is most definitely of "blue state" metropolitan character, and OC most definitely draws attention.

[Devereaux]

I've been CC'ing for a long time and OC'ing for just over a year on a regular basis in two different states - and hopefully a third soon. OC is not the best mode of carry for all situations especially from a (dare i say it) "tactical" advantage. But then again there are many times I specifically OC in order for it to act as a deterant and also to give me the quickest access to the weapon should I need it. Again, it all comes down to time and place.

I don't think any less of a gun owner who believes OC is a bad idea, however they should not criticize those that do OC.

Admittedly there are many times where I force myself to open carry and it's really for two reasons; one to desensitize the sheeple and two in order to exercise my right - thus making it harder for them to take it away. The more of them we convince that guns and gun owners are not evil the easier our political fight will be, in my opinion.

I have had lots of people ask if I am a LEO, but never had anyone do "the freak."

I would guess off hand that you live somewhere in the west. Here in the Soviet State of Illinois, people get "freaked" over simply OWNING firearms. Indeed, I believe in my neighborhood I may be the ONLY one in the 40 some homes in the development that actually owns A firearm, much less several. OC here would either draw screams or derision - or both. In Wisconsin, when I am out deer hunting I carry a .44 mag Desert Eagle in an outside shoulder holster, and since I am on private land, no one mentions it. But general carry here is illegal, so OC would be "traumatizing" to the poor little liberals in Chicago. Although it doesn't seem being assaulted, robbed on the street, or even raped is so bad. Strange "people".

[gitt1]

I was just speaking to someone last last with family working downtown Chicago, living in Chicago proper. He said the level of hatred from the "downtrodden" to the more fortunate is shocking and the number of concealed firearms downtown is quite high. They really fear for their lives and are willing to risk the law.
Larry

[Devereaux]

Well, that's been a fact for some time. It is one of those "unspoken" facts. Indeed, I make it a point NOT to go downtown if I can at all avoid it. And if I go somewhere that I deem potentially dangerous, there just might be something in my pocket. Cooper's Laws apply.

[gitt1]

I guess I'm behind because races mix fairly well out here in the boonies, but it sounds like the big cities are powderkegs waiting for an opportunity.
A friend of mine raised hereabouts told me he never thought of himself as a racist until he joined the military (racism the cause of everything, not laziness, stupidity, disrespect, disobeying orders, etc.).
Larry

[Pocono]

Yeah I see your point on living on Hussein Obama's homeland. I feel for you guys. I was more referring to the 43 states where OC is legal - I try to follow opencarry.org pretty closely and for the most part the intereaction guys and gals on there have with the public are pretty civilized I believe. Of course you have places like IL and NJ and MD and other communistic states that want to keep the people suppressed with NO CARRY.

Addressing the OP issue - I would like to think we'll see the national reciprocity in the near future but outside of that I am not sure the Fed would get involved with any of the state gun regulations. States want their autonomy and the SCOTUS opinion stated that the locals are free to impose reasonable restrictions for their states. Therefore I think regulations will remain at the state level. Besides, I am not sure we want anything "granted" to us at the Fed level. Too easy to reverse anything they want. More difficult to reverse 50 laws than it is 1. That's why I encourage everyone to get involved with their local lobby groups. They will fight harder at the local level then the NRA or GOA or 2AF for things like the brandishing issue, restaurant carry, automobile carry w/out a license, castle doctrine, and yes even OC. So support the locals.

[BrooklynBoss]

For me it's whatever makes you feel safe... Open carry and your less likely to be attacked,  Conceal and you maintain the element of surprise.  Me, I conceal but for some reason I love to see people open carrying.  One day when I get over my fear of having a swat team take me down   I will try OC

[Bob Mayne]

I actually wish I had the option to OC or CC. Here in Texas, OC is not allowed. Can you believe that?  It's Texas!  Funny though, many outsiders who don't know much about gun laws, think that Open Carry is allowed in TX.  They think everyone rides around Texas on horseback with revolvers strapped to their hips and a 30-30 on the saddle in the desert. Seriously, I actually had some numbskull from California say to me..."doesn't everyone in Texas carry guns around?"

It's actually surprising how many have a CHL and don't carry.  Or they are concealing it very well.

Those of you who have the option, you're lucky. Be sure to support OpenCarry.org too.

[Devereaux]

I dunno. I tend to agree with Justice Thomas, that carrying a firearm pre-existed any rights stated in the Constitution. Rather, the 2nd only made formal that the government is not allowed to abridge the people's right to carry. Or do any other thing with a firearm that they dog gone want. I believe we should have the right to own fully automatic firearms - it's what the military has, and IF we are all a "well regulated militia" then we should have the same armament. Certainly taking out a tyrannical government would be simpler if we had the same weaponry the military has.

I am not a "militia-in-the-woods" type. I don't believe in practicing "military maneuvers". But I DO believe there are essential rights that are God given, and not the result of "granting" from any government. One of those is the right to KBA. I am not sure I would accept ANY restrictions to carrying. ?Why is it that I am not "allowed" to carry in a government building. ?What is so special about a government building. I am a citizen and that ought to be more powerful than any darn bureaucrat.

[Monkey]

I am a citizen and that ought to be more powerful than any darn bureaucrat.

+1
We the people.