About Burning the Qu'aran

[Chemsoldier]

There has been no offensive attack by islaamic forces on western soil since that day - until 2001.

Except the first attack on the World Trade Center. 

Oh, and a lot in Greece if you consider it western (I tend to).  All the nut jobs who think the Oklahoma City bombing was a middle eastern put up job.  The 1995 Paris Metro bombing.  Any number of Algerian attacks on french soil back when the Algerian war was in full swing.  Do Colonial possessions in the Mid East and other areas count as western soil?  I would think not, twould be too hard to disentangle Islamist attacks from ones of persons fighting a war of national liberation. How about Argentina? Its "west" compared to the mid east.  Hezbollah did some attacks there in 1992 and 1994.

Do you know who had perpetrated the greatest number of suicide terrorist attacks before the invasion of Iraq?  Nope, not the Palestinians.  The Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka, those bastards are not even religious, they are ostensibly Marxists.  They were the leader by a fair margin. Full of useless facts I am.

[Devereaux]

There were substantial battles with islaamic forces since 1683, but they were not islaamic forces seeking to conquer territory but combat to attempt to keep conquered lands. Serbia won its independence somewhere in the 1850's, the "War of 1912" was the last war, on the Balkans, with Turks holding European land - they were jointly thrown off the Balkan Peninsula by the Serbs, Bulgarians, and Greeks. Algerians fighting French was a local concept concerning whether Algeria would be independent of France, also not offensive action.

Now I will grant you that there were several bombs set off, one in a discotheque somewhere in Germany I think it was, that were islaamic bombs against American soldiers, as well as Pan Am 103. Can't recollect where 103 left from. The Cole was somewhere in the mideast, so it doesn't count, even though it WAS an attack against the US. So perhaps I was off by a few years if you count these lessor bombings.

[N.U.G.U.N.]

"Engadge in a modern day Crusade?"

We in the west accept far too much blame for the crusades.  We are constantly told about these "crusades" to conquer the muslim states. But one should study their history to find out why those crusades were launched.  The muslim nations were systematically attacking christian states.  It reached the point that the Eastern Orthodox Church asked help from it's western Catholic cousins. 

The crusades were initially sent in defense of Christiandom that was under attack by the Islamic states.  Now eventually a number of crusades started to become about pillaging. In fact, the Pope excommunicated an entire crusade for their actions.

But far too often the Crusades are made to sound as if they were an unprecedented attack. No, they was a lot of precedent.

--

As for Muslims. Many of the muslims in this country came her fleeing the conditions of their homes states. Many arabs in this nation are in fact Christians fleeing islamic tyranny.

As for moderate muslims.  I find a great lack in this term. The planned mosque is provacative, even in the naming "Cordoba" a conquest, and symbol. Not to us, but to Islam. Their attempts to build Mosques at all of the locations, in tradition of building a mosque atop of conquest.  I wonder how much money they have donated to the memorials?

The biggest issue I have is that I have never met a Muslim who has condemned the attacks of 9-11. Everyone I dialogued with pretty much tried to point to Israel, etc. Rather than just stating that 9-11 was a heinous crime. Heck, even most of the the people that are featured in the media, that supposedly are moderate apologetic spokespeople always seem to have trouble condemning. They'll always point to the sins and wrongs of the west. When asked by a reporter, don't you think 9-11 was wrong. They'll usually say "Yes, Yes, but.....this and that."

I almost always noticed they won't say the words themselves.

[Chemsoldier]

I know plenty of Muslims that condemn 9/11.  There were Imams that issued Fatwas against Bin Laden and man condemnations of the 9/11 attacks as against the tenants of Islam. 

Islam is problematic in that there are pretty clear on Kafirs (non-believers) and what should be done about them.  Something similar to not suffering a witch to live I believe.  However, most Sunni jurists admit that Christians are not Kafir, they are Dhimmi or "people of the book."  Christians are followers of a holy tradition that Islam recognizes though Muslims consider it incomplete since Christians do not recognize Mohammed and his revelations.  This recognition of people of the book as being distinct is why for over a milenea every major middle eastern city has a Christian and Jewish quarter.  The Jewish quarters have mostly vanished with the creation of Israel.  Issues or religion and nationalism collided and a combination of Arab anger and Jewish desire for their own territory caused the vast majority to move to Israel (where incidentally they often had problems assimilating since they were Arabs and spoke Arabic in a nation dominated by educated European expats).

If you are asked while abroad whether or not you are a Muslim say, "I am a Muslim on the path of Jesus son of Mary."  Without getting into the linguistics of it you are simply showing you are Christian but in a way that shows a bit of knowledge of Islam.  Just as Judaism and Christianity are different religions but most Christians have a soft spot for Judaism even though they do not recognize the divinity of Christ because of the history of Judaism...Islam is very well aware of its history with earlier revelation.  They see themselves as decendents of Abraham, believe in Noah, Moses, they believe Jesus brought the message of salvation (though they think he is a prophet, not the son of God).  Remind them of these things (subtly, such as the way I just mentioned) and they are likely to lay aside the baggage of Christian/Islamic conflict.  Or at the least they will simply hate you for being American instead of hating you for being Christian.

-Chem

[Devereaux]

I have no reason to doubt your statement, but have to tell you that I don't see these muslims. I can't find any significant disagreement with the jihadis within the muslim world, at least as far as I can find. I see plenty of imams that decry the US. I have seen ONE muslim, and he happened to be a naval officer here, that openly objected to what was being perpetrated BY the jihadis and what was being set out as dogma. Then I saw the lady I mentioned somewhere, about a week ago on Fox News, who openly stated that she was against the Cordoba building concept, and why - AND the fact that she had since coming out openly with that position had numerous death threats sent to her from American muslims.

?Why aren't these muslims out there in public decrying the acts and statements of the jihadis. ?If, indeed, this is what they believe, why aren't they proclaiming it. Especially in this nation, where there is, after all, a fair amount of freedom and no religious police (that we know of).

[Chemsoldier]

The reason you dont see it is multifaceted.

1) It doesnt get in the news.  When I was in Craplapistan the Taliban planted a bomb under the seat of a popular pro-Coalition Imam.  It detonated in a mosque, while he was preaching, on Friday (sabbath), during Ramadan!  The people oh Khowst were pissed about it.  A couple of days later thousands of people went marching through the streets of Khowst waving shoes and yelling "Death to the Taliban! Death to Usama Bin Laden!"  Never made the western media.  Hell we did press releases on it, it never got picked up.  I remember Glenn Beck of Stossel or one of those cats did a special about moderate Muslims and how they were having a hard time getting their message out.  Bottom line is that even the hippy press cant deal with non-sensational stories.  Call it the Springer effect.  Notice Jerry Springer never has normal parents on there dealing with tensions between them and their kids who are non-conformists with a few body piercings or something mundane.  No it is always familiies of Lesbian neo-nazi bikers with meth problems.

2)  Muslims dont stand on roof tops shouting it.  Who does?  Ever seen a Mormon get irritated over polygamy jokes or questions.  They dont run around prefacing every conversation with "I am not a polygamist."  Likewise Muslims feel they should not get into problems in their religion with every person they meet.  Of course they want to talk about the good things in their religion.  They beleive in it sincerely and dont want to start the conversation with, "We are not all terrorists and I hate that Bin Laden guy"  Most Americans know little about Islam and its history.  That knowledge they do possess is often the "bad stuff."  Its a major world religion, people can and do study it their whole lives. So it is natural that they do not spend their first contact with a new person explaining the nuanced issues with their religion to someone they dont know who likely does not even know the 5 pillars of Islam.  I have found that once you get to know a Muslim and establish a rapport and show inquisitiveness about their culture rather than judgement they will talk relatively freely about some of the issues.

-Chem

[Chris]

Chem,
That was a very well-thought out post, and I will not - cannot - disagree with your personal experiences that produced that insight.... nor the insights you posted. I can certainly agree that there is a difference in the religious philosophy between the Sunni and Shai Muslim sects. I do know a Sunni Muslim who told me - direct quote - " Shias are crazy". That does not necessarily change my opinion of Islam as a whole. It, overall, is still a religion that is based upon conquest/domination, with little ... if any.... tolerance for non-believers.
You have obviously studied or been exposed to more adherents of Islam than I have, and I have a serious question to ask you. My Sunni neighbor has been there for the last five years. For the last two years he has stopped by my house each March and presented me with a bag of oranges. I have never pressed him on why, and he has never offered an explanation.... but I am curious. Is there some religious significance to the giving of oranges/citrus in the spring? I'm not joking here. I would like to know.
Chris Christian

[Devereaux]

Can't deny that Jerry Springer gets more notice than a lot of more informative and worthy programs. Some of that is the media, some the demand of enough people who seem to find such "entertaining" - and I leave you to come up with a definition for that. Your commentary seems to basically reinforce what I have found over time to be generally true - man on an individual basis has an interest in being left alone and allowed to live his life in relative peace. Important concepts are family, friends, livelyhood, and then the other stuff that comes with that - house, transportation, furnishings, etc. The more successful one is, the more "toys" one has. There are exceptions to this generality, but it tends to hold relatively well across cultural barriers.

I know a fair amount about communism - not because I had any dying interest in getting to know the tenants of Karl and the boys, but because I went to the hot box, and wanted to know who my enemy was and what he fought over. You have, I am presuming, gotten much the same kind of knowledge and facts for similar reasons. It is an important concept to have a tactical edge over your enemy, and knowing islaam and how they think and feel would certainly be a useful adjunct to ... ammo. And formation. And armor.

I personally don't have any real interest in knowing a whole lot about islaam. I am a Christian, and will not be changing my religion, so I am not in the "investigating" mode. What I want is to continue to live as a classical western liberal (and that's individual freedom, limited government, right to worship as I see fit, and the rule of law - NOT what today's "progressives" abuse the liberal label with). In that sense, IF islaam were not assaulting me, nor attempting to convert my nation to sharia, I could care less that they are muslim, nor who they worship, nor where, etc. I have, after all, no concerns about Budhists, Shinto, Tao, etc. The aboriginies of Australia have a religion of their own, as do the American Indians, and I'm cool with those.

I did not start this war. I don't recollect any Americans standing up in Congress, nor preaching on the editorial pages of the multiple newspapers of the nation, that we, as a nation, are now duty bound to attack islaam, nor the nations that are islaamic (even though they exhibit an intolerance that is pretty mind-boggling). There was no drum-beating to kill off all the islaamic people, to take over their lands, to burn, rape, torture, and then dispense with any and all muslims. Heck, we're even arguing whether or not to allow them to build a victory monument overlooking their greatest land victory in the latest decade, maybe century. So I don't really believe it is our obligation to find the muslim moderates, to hear them out, to come to understand their religion; that shoe seems to be on the other foot - their responsibility. I look at what the basic tenants are, as broadcast by the jihadis, and they are unfriendly. I do not want to live as Dhimmi. I do not want the Bible to be "unallowed" literature. I don't want to see and hear riots over whether someone made a joke about muslims, or Mohammad, or any other aspect of their ideology. Governments should be secular, and religion should be a personal issue. I don't deny that people should be allowed to display their faith in the public square, but not to be assaulting others.

So it seems to me that we are kind of back to the position that the "moderate muslims" that you know need to be more forceful in showing themselves, and getting themselves heard. Else we have every right to be suspicious of each and every muslim that has not personally and obviously demonstrated his loyalty to this nation in its current format, and we would be silly to do otherwise. So I would believe an American soldier that is muslim. I would start to believe more muslims when I see them as a group standing up and denouncing our common enemy.

There are some simply facts in this world. There doesn't seem to be much that islaam brings to the table. They act like savages all too often. Their ideas of "jurisprudence" are barbaric. They have absolutely no compunction of lying and gross misconduct towards others if they feel it is of benefit (look at Ahmadinawackjob in Iran. Check out all the mullahs in Syria, Lebanon, Iran). If all of them were suddenly gone, there would be no serious hole in the fabric of the world. We could make that happen. The fact that we haven't and aren't likely to only speaks to our own restraint, not any wonderful aspect of their actions.

It's really their move - whether or not they like it.

[Chris]

Dev... IMHO.... not only hit the nail on the head... but hammered it home. I could not have written his last post better. We have no reason to apologize for our society, our prosperity, our values, our level of tolerance to others, or our laws. And, we didn't start this fight. We just need to finish it... in our favor. The alternate is to live under barbarian rule. Given the minscule amount of contribution to the common good... science, medicine, technology, philosophy, literature, etc... that Islam has graced the World with in the last 1,000 years (anybody actually know of any contributions?)... do we actually want these barbarians in charge of our lives? 
Chris Christian

[Chemsoldier]

Chris;

Many people (of all persuasions) take their obligations as neigbors seriously.  My guess Chris is that he gives you citrus because it is part of the traditions of where he is from as far as being a good neigbor.  I would reciprocate in your own way.  He understands that oranges are not a phenomenal gift in your eyes.  The importance is that he did it.  So if you give him something that you see sa useful and important it will cement your bonds as neigbors.  It need not be expensive (it shouldnt be expensive in fact, it might make him feel he owes you something).  But in short I am not aware of a particular Islamic custom in that vein.

Heinlein once said that manners are a social lubricant that was even more important between people that know each other than it is between strangers. 


Dev;

I will admit I study Islam mostly because I am a soldier.  I would say you and others have amply pointed out that Muslim radicals have killed more Americans than anyother group in the last 20 years.  Being that the voter is the smallest divisible unit of Government, and the mild direct physical threat to your being, Islam probably warrants some study.  Start with the basics from a nuetral source, do not dive straight into criticism.  That would be like studying the legal debate on gun control laws without knowing that there are three branches of government.

-Chem

[Chemsoldier]

The greatest enemy of the people of the United States is ignorance.

Unfortunately it is something that we seem to have in ample supply.

"You can always count on the United States to do the right thing, after they have tried everything else."

-Winston Churchill

[Daeglan]

I am of the firm belief that our best chances is in educating Muslims in concepts that are not in the Quran I hear far to much about how in many Muslim countries the only thing that is taught is the Quran.  I also hear stories about teenagers in Saudi Arabia getting around the rules of their country where men and women cannot comingle by using text messaging. Much like China the hope is in the next generation.

[Chris]

+1 to Recono. Barak Hussain Obama is classic example of a populace swayed by catchy phrases... sound bites.... MTV....a media with an agenda... yet a populace lacking any real understanding of issues. 
Chris Christian

[Chemsoldier]

One of the biggest doctrinal conflicts we have between the West (not Christianity necessarily) and Islam is that Islam has no concept of Caesero-papism. This is a reference to Matthew 22-21: “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”  This has evolved into the idea that there are some things that are the business of government and others that are the business of religion.  This is why the Pope was the central head of the Church but not an emperor of all of Europe. 

In Islam there is no caeseropapist ideal.  Mohammed was the spiritual, governmental and military leader of his people.  This was replaced with the Caliphal ideal, the idea of a Caliph who was the spiritual and governmental head of the Umma or body of all believers.  In practice the amount of control the Caliph had was fairly limited after Islam grew really large.  At the height of Islam's power the Caliphate became more a political thing and the religious leadership was more metaphorical with religious decisions deferred to the Ulema.

So one of the key tenants of liberalism, the separation of law and morality, that allows us to coexist peacefully in a pluralistic society is missing from the traditions of Islam.  It has evolved anyway for many Muslims since many adopted many western ideas to try to emulate the success of the west. Ataturk did when he founded Turkey in the wake of WWI.  Most of the secular nationalist leaders did the same thing in the 20th century.  Egypt, Syria, and Iraq all distanced themselves from religious rule.  I have spoken with many Muslims that believe the separation is necessary but they dont want to let the law get away from the precepts of Islam. Sound familiar?

The lack of a scriptural basis for separation of religion and state is one of the larger issues between liberal society and Islam. 

-Chem

[gitt1]

This has evolved into the idea that there are some things that are the business of government and others that are the business of religion.  This is why the Pope was the central head of the Church but not an emperor of all of Europe.

Chem, I'm afraid you missed history that day. The popes of old did try to rule the world but had too much competition from all the other tyrant want-a-be's. Maybe the blessing Europe gave the world was a kettle with no real natural borders where everyone mistrusted each other and typically ganged up on the next would-be bully. The reason Islam stayed in Europe so long was that the so-called Christians refused to help each other out of fear that someone else would become too great and powerful.
Larry

[Chemsoldier]

I am tracking  the Popes tried, but Caesero-Papism is a reason (among others) it didnt work very well and in time the seperation between law and morality became ingrained in western society.  The reformation really helped (after  years of bloody religious warfare) with advancing the idea as well.

[Devereaux]

I believe when you look at history, you generally find Christianity has pretty much done most of the needed adjustments to social arrangements WAY before islaam. So your examples of "westernization" of islaamic nations mostly consist of things like Ataturk, and HE lived in the early 1900's. Today Turkey is trying hard to throw off all those changes that they lived with for the last 100 years and "return to the days of yesteryear". None of the current "western" muslim nations is particularly solid - they all teeter on the verge of falling into hopeless anarchy (or the rule of imams).

Your example of Matthew 22-24 is only one of several places that the separation of faith and government is underscored. There is the whole exchange between Pilot and Jesus, wherein Jesus notes he is NOT a king of this earth but the next. Moses never preached that Yahweh was the "leader" of the Jews; he was the God of the Jews. They still had to govern (and live) their lives on their own. And they repeatedly did it badly.

[N.U.G.U.N.]

"I am a Muslim on the path of Jesus son of Mary."

First off, I will never say that. Because I am in no way on the path of Islam. We can get into technical theological points but that'd be a tangent. But I will say that such is proof of the feeling many have. Muslims demand submission.  As such, any who do not submit must be subjugated.  And it is why the WTC Mosque is so controversial. Because it comes across like a conquest. If I recall correctly they also want to place one in PA where the jetliner went down.

As for all these moderate muslims. Well, I've seen the media interview quite a number of them. But I've seen very very few speak out.  They always turn to Israel.  Never themselves.

[Chris]

A BIG +1 to NUGUN.
Chris Christian