Episode 85 Carry that big gun

[Bob Mayne]

Just a quick note to convey the message that I practice what I preach.  Today completes the 21st consecutive day of carrying my Glock at the 3:30 position in my IWB, M-Tac holster.  As I mentioned in Episode 85, it only takes 21 days to forge a habit. This holster is quite possibly changing the way I carry from AIWB back to 3:30 IWB.  I train that way most of the time, so I'm beginning to think I should carry that way.  

Today I made 4 business calls while carrying my G19.  No problem at all.  A loose but stylish untucked shirt and no one had a clue.  They real key is to not act like you're carrying a gun.  Something I forgot to mention in the podcast is that too often, I think, people who carry get paranoid that someone will find out they are carrying.  So they get worried about it and literally act like they're carrying a gun.  That will telegraph the fact that you are carrying and possibly ruin the secret.  Just go about your day and normal activities as you normally would.  People aren't looking for a gun, with the possible exception of other concealed carriers who probably don't care anyway.  

Just yesterday I went to Walgreens late a night.  There was a cop standing in front of the door just watching (what I don't know.)  He looked at me but his eyes never looked anywhere but straight at my face.  So it seems as though as long as you aren't doing anything wrong, even the cops aren't looking for carried guns.

Carry your big guns folks.  Just make sure you have the proper belt, holster and clothing, you'll be just fine.

[mistertaco]

Passed an officer today in the atrium on way to the men's room.

Indeed. No one is really looking. Seems the furthest thing from anyone's mind in our building. Business as usual.

[Chemsoldier]

I am not surprised that the officer looked at you in the eyes and neve saw the gun.  There is a lot of world to observe as a LEO and one of the easier ways to detect people doing things they shouldnt is to read a person's expression and body language.  Sometimes you can look at someone and see the crazy in them.  Sometimes its erratic body movements, the way they move their eyes around.  Additionally body langauage says a lot in non-crazy people.

Is the person drifting through their tasks or looking determined?  In the books and DVDs I have seen that referenced the NYPD Stakeout Squad a theme mentioned was being able to tell who was shopping, who was causing trouble and who was preparing to hit a store.

-Chem

[Chris]

+1 to Chem.
Your demeanor counts a lot, as does who you are associating with at the time. Some people who are new to carrying a concealed handgun tend to worry about the gun too much and become "edgy" around LEOs. You DO need to keep it concealed, but it doesn't have to be totally deep concealment around LEOs. There are so many things that people today carry around their waist (cell phones, Ipads, etc). That a bulge under a shirt does not automatically cause concern.
When I was doing a magazine T&E on the new SIG 250, I carried one for a couple of weeks under nothing more than a tee-shirt worn untucked. One day I was in St. Augustine doing some fishing with a guide friend of mine. We spent all morning on the water, returned to the ramp, loaded the boat, and a St. Aug LEO from the water patrol stopped by to chat with my guide friend, whom he knew well as a good source of info on the water. I've got a 16 shot 9mm in a OWB pancake holster under a white tee-shirt that has some sweat on it and is kinda clingy. My guide buddy introduced me as a writer for Florida Sportsman magazine, me & the LEO shook hands, and spent about 15 minutes chatting. He may have looked and noted a bulge under my tee-shirt, but nothing was said. I'd already been established as a good guy, and my demeanor was such. Had he asked I would have shown him my CCW permit, but the matter never came up. If you're acting like a good guy it normally doesn't.
Chris Christian

[Bob Mayne]

As it's often said, 75% of communication is non verbal.

[Chris]

If you look like a good guy, and act like a good guy, you will often be treated as a good guy. If you are not treated as a good guy, be complient and polite, and then show them your permit when asked.
On another note... dealing with the M&P in CCW... The standard sized gun (9mm, .357 SIG, or .40 S&W)  has a 4.25 inch barrel. The compact version of the same guns has about a 3.5 inch barrel. The other frame dimensions are the same. If you have any degree of concealment, that extra 3/4 inch of barrel is a non factor. Same for a Commander length 1911, as opposed to the full sized five inch barrel 1911... or a three inch .357 Magnum revolver, as opposed to a four inch version. The frame size is what determines concealability... an extra 3/4 or full inch of barrel is superfulous, if you can conceal the basic frame. The only real factor there is if the extra barrel length is a bit too long while you are sitting, and pokes at you. If your build says "No", then the standard sized guns carry just as well as the shorter barreled models. Some folks get real concerned over barrel length, but the frames are the same size, and the frame is what largely determines what you can conceal under various modes of dress. I could just as easily conceal/carry my standard M&P 9mm as my compact. There may be no real reason not to carry the bigger gun. You'd be surprised what kind of gun you can carry with 'casual dress'... and even how many you can carry. This kindly, old, smiling Grandpa-kinda guy can easily conceal a 17 shot 9mm, spare 17 round mag, .38 snubby, and Beretta .32 (or another snubby) under just a loose fitting tee shirt, and 'old man" relaxed fit jeans. I seldom carry three guns, but two are somewhat normal, and nobody pays any attention.... as long as I'm just a 'smiling grandpa'. Being the "Grey Man" is very good.
Chris Christian
 

[Doc Wesson]

..... SUPERFLUOUS..... GESUNDHEIT!!
WORDS.......

[Bob Mayne]

Very good points Chris, the only thing I would add is that 3/4 of an inch in barrel length can make a difference for some people if they carry AIWB.   Other than that, I completely agree.  That's why I like my Kahr PM9 so much.  Depending on what my weight is doing, sometimes I have to carry the PM9 AIWB and not the Glock 19. 

[ske1eter]

I can't do AIWB even with a G27 for when I sit it's not comfortable at all and it's not that I need to get used to it. I guess my physical make-up won't allow it. Therefore, I usually go with my M&P full-sized .45 in a TT Gunleather IWB at about the 4:00 position plus a spare mag with 10 rds. of Federal HST goodness on the other side.

[Panhead Bill]

After carrying for 4 years or so now I actually got paranoid that I got made a couple days ago.  After the GRPC I was playing tourist in San Francisco and, while waiting in line for some restrooms at the tourist-filled scenic view area off the Golden Gate Bridge, a California Highway Patrol pulled up.  The line was stretching out into the roadway and I was at the end of the line.  The road was very wide so the line did not get in the way of traffic.  But the CHP pulled up towards me, stopped in the roadway about 10 feet from me, facing me, and the officer began to get out of the car.  I was carrying my full-size Kimber Custom II IWB at 3:30 and a J-Frame S&W appendix, both under an oversized bowling-style shirt.  Racing through my head was the thought that I was in San Francisco (not exactly gun-friendly) and some tourist noticed printing when I leaned over to take a picture or something and panicked, calling 911.  Now, some young CHP who's never heard of a CCW is going to prone me out. 

Of course, that didn't happen.  I wasn't made.  It looked like there's actually a substation right there next to the restrooms, he didn't so much glance at me.  But to the initial topic, I made a point not to start pulling on my shirt to make sure I was covering or make other obvious moves like that.  I think had I done so I may have garned some attention from him. 

[Bob Mayne]

I'll bet a lot of CCW'ers think they get made all the time, when in reality they don't.  It's in their head. 

[SirBrass]

Usually when you get made, you get confronted directly and immediately.  I work hard on acting cool around cops and other folks.  I will naturally rest my thumbs on the top edge of my belt around the buckle.  That way it doesn't look odd if I adjust my belt a bit (if the gun is dragging the whole assembly down a bit or whatnot) w/o actually touching the holster.

I've found by simple fact of I know what a gun bulge looks like when its printing, that most folks don't know what a gun bulge LOOKS like even in a heavily non-permissive environment.  Cops would, but I'm not so worried about them.  It's the paranoid anti-gunner whose mind equates a private citizen carrying a firearm concealed in a public place at the same panic level as a terrorist with a suitcase nuke.  THEY are the ones I worry about and the folks who I REALLY don't want to get made by.  Its those kinds of folks that get law abiding gun carriers killed.

Note:  generally I will wear 2 layers weather permitting (ie, it's not TOO hot):  an untucked t-shirt and an unbuttoned button-down shirt over top.  Even if layer #1 doesn't do the greatest job of concealment, the 2nd layer just obfuscates the outline of the gun even more.

[Migo]

I haven't heard Episode 85 yet, but I've found that the length of the grip dominates the gun/clothing selection. I can easily conceal an XD sub-compact with a flimsy t-shirt. I can't do that with an HK45. Even with a winter coat, the HK45 grip at the 8:30 position is sometimes noticeable depending on which winter coat I use. The length of the HK45 is easily swallowed by my jeans.

I agree with Chris in that if you're polite and behave like a good guy, then nobody looks at you or cares what you're wearing, even if you're wearing Batman's utility belt.

And Bob's comment of other concealed carriers looking for guns reminded me of what I was doing last weekend sitting on a bench in a shoe store waiting for my girlfriend to finish her shoe shopping.

Migo

[SirBrass]

This kindly, old, smiling Grandpa-kinda guy can easily conceal a 17 shot 9mm, spare 17 round mag, .38 snubby, and Beretta .32 (or another snubby) under just a loose fitting tee shirt, and 'old man" relaxed fit jeans. I seldom carry three guns, but two are somewhat normal, and nobody pays any attention.... as long as I'm just a 'smiling grandpa'. Being the "Grey Man" is very good.
Chris Christian
 

Sounds like your gunbelt-maker seriously earned his keep.  I find that the amount of weight I can carry on my belt is determined by stiffness and load-bearing capability of my gun belt (with a few other less consequential factors added in, such as distance between belt loops, width of loops, and strength of loops, and where the pants ride on the midsection).  its ability to resist shifting with movement is decreased the more weight is added onto it, so the stronger it is, the better able it is to resist shifting its load around on you (and thus making it VERY uncomfortable to carry equipment).

My biggest challenge in determining mode of dress is holster-belt match, with the determining factor riding more seriously on the belt choice... and this from selecting AMONG gun belts.

As for me, I can easilly conceal a full sized gun.  The reason I prefer a smaller-framed compact (and the M&P compact with a mag inserted is about a half inch shorter in frame than the full size, and that makes the difference for me) is what happens when I sit down against something like a metal folding chair, or a wooden pew.  Sitting down, that frame will generally go off on a tangent from your body and with a metal folding chair will stick sound and thus snag when you try and stand up, or it will poke out and push against the metal back.  You will NOT be happy with that gun pushing back against you, and if it slips and slides into that gap there WILL be noise made (I speak from experience).  Same goes for sitting in a wooden pew.  "Thunk" goes your gun's frame as you sit down and realize your frame solidly poked the back of the pew before your hind quarters planted themselves down.  Again, you will NOT be comfortable and you'll have a case of the fidgets.  With just a half inch shorter, I can have that gun riding at the same place and yet not go off on such a harsh tangent so as to poke the back of everything I sit down in.

If you're going to mainly be upright the entire time, like walking to the walgreens or going on a jog, sure carry that full frame gun.  It's not going to print more than your compact.  But if you are going to moving, sitting, moving, sitting, then that smaller compact frame is going to save you alot of awkward-feeling-time while sitting down against things that weren't designed for the person trying to sit while concealing a full-sized handgun.

[Chris]

SirBrass,
My normal, evey day common clothing belt, is a 1.5 inch double lined gun belt. I forget who makes it (Tex Shoemaker, or somebody). Worn it for seven years. Solid belt, and it easily supports a pancake holster ( Bianchi Model 7 Shadow... with the thumb snap cut off) that handles a SW MP 9C or a Glock 20. Stick a subby into the left front pants pocket of my Relaxed Fit Wrangler jeans... add a IWB in SOB with a snubby or a Beretta .32, and three guns are easy to tote under a loose fitting Extra-Large tee shirt. Never been made. I don't worry about a "thunk" if I sit down, because people carry all sorts of stuff on their belts these days... cell phones and such. Nobody pays any attention to that. If someone does, and asks what the "thunk" was... I just say I'm a kindly old Grandpa who just farted. That normally ends the conversation and people then leave me alone. I'm not that worried... in Florida (or other states, for that matter) about being "made" for a thunk or an odd bulge. If a LEO asks me if I am carrying a concealed handgun, I'll tell him "Yes"... and I have a State issued permit that allows me to do so.
Chris Christian

[SirBrass]

Well, it's not so much the sound, but the pressure a gun in a behind-the-hip-carried gun puts on one's back that really bugs me.  And trust me, it is NOT comfortable.  Sounds like you kind of already avoid the problem by carrying a small pistol in the SotB area.

It's carrying a G17 or otherwise larger-framed pistol that gets uncomfortable in sitting positions when carried concealed and behind the hip.  Appendix carry would solve that, but that makes such guns less concealable for those of us with alot of..... "girth" shall we say.

I'm just saying that compact frame size CAN indeed be a major determining factor for concealed carry.... not for keeping it concealed so much as to make it so that one isn't driven crazy by back pain or simply a case of "I can't get comfortable in this seat" syndrome.  I've tried both, and the compact frame really does save my back from the pain and discomfort of a full-framed gun simply sticking out too far away from my body when sitting down (and this is when its in an IWB).

Obviously YMMV, but this is my experience, and I've been experimenting with carry positions and carry gun sizes trying to find a good balance between being properly armed and "comfortable enough."

[Bob Mayne]

I'm with SirBrass on this one. I've tried to carry my G34 during the winter months.  The grip sticks out way too far.  I've got some very stiff kydex lined leather gun belts and a Wilderness Tactical double stitched belt.  My G19 is no problem at all, it never "thunks" on a chair or bench and never prints in my Comp Tac M Tac at all.  AIWB, the Glock 34 is just a no go and the G19 is just right.  Since the grip size of a G34 and G17 are identical, it pretty much rules out full size service pistols for me. 

Yet that's why I really like the compacts.  They are big enough for me to get a full firing grip, quick draw but small enough to conceal and carry all day long without worry.  Great combo.