Episode #104: to carry or not

[NS2]

Words cannot describe my level of contempt for massachussetts and the subject who line up to hand their freedoms over willingly. I hate the thought of supporting their mommy state with the permit fee. Maybe I'll do a little more research and decide its worth the risk as well as overcoming my moral dilema of giving them my money.

Well...That's a horse of another color, isn't it?

I understand completely.  I do not like the idea of breaking the law, even a MA law, and I abhor the idea of being dis-armed, so I just do the non-re permit process and then take a really hot shower while trying to forget.   

[Jeffh]

Ha!

[openeyes]

On your side keep your mind open. On our side we'll try not to push you hard and remember we've been exactly  where you are now.

Thanks. I'm finding that even just writing about it on here makes me rethink the possibilities a bit more. It will be interesting to see where I'm at on this in a few months.

[Goldenboy]

I'm from Boston and know what you're saying about Chelsea.   Didn't realize that's where you go to get a non-MA res permit.  It's kind of ironic since you'll need a gun to get out if there alive but you can't carry one until you go there.   

I live in KY now and is in the process of getting my CCW but it is a pai ln that I have to leave my guns at home when I go back to MA to visit friends and family.   And the non-MA res permit may not help much since I drive there and have to go thru NJ, NY and CT.   All states that does not have reciprocity with KY.   

[Devereaux]

SOME DAY we may get the nation to view CCW much like we view driving licenses. Your out-of-state license doesn't bar you from driving in another state. Nor do you have to comply with all that state's requirements. eg. some states say you need to carry your registration in the car, while others don't. My state (amazingly!) doesn't require a registration in the car, but proof of insurance IS required. I only need to comply with my state's car requirements, not every state in the union. THAT would be a huge hodge-podge. Like CCW. Another thing to push for.

[Jeffh]

Yeah, national CCW would be amazing, but I'm torn between my desire for it and my beleif in state's rights. However, since it pertains to civil rights, perhaps a federal ruling would be in order.

[NS2]

I'm from Boston and know what you're saying about Chelsea.   Didn't realize that's where you go to get a non-MA res permit.  It's kind of ironic since you'll need a gun to get out if there alive but you can't carry one until you go there.   

I live in KY now and is in the process of getting my CCW but it is a pai ln that I have to leave my guns at home when I go back to MA to visit friends and family.   And the non-MA res permit may not help much since I drive there and have to go thru NJ, NY and CT.   All states that does not have reciprocity with KY.   

I81 to I84.  You're only in NY for about 40 minutes.

The problem with the MA non-res permit thing is that you MUST go in person for the interview.  Meaning that each year, regardless of where you live, you must go in to meet with them so that you can get your picture taken and give up another set of prints.  They don't issue.  This is after you have given them the application and they have had time to review it.  Then, they send you home without the permit because they run all apps through the MA Dept of Human Health & Services to see if you have any mental issues.  The funky part of that is that they can only check MA records; it comes back each time as, "no record found."  DUH!!!  That adds an extra 30 days to the process.  MY permit expires at the end of OCT each year.  I submit my renewal app on AUG 1st now.  It's a racket designed to weed out those who are not truly committed to getting a permit.  Especially since it must be done each year. 

However, it is the unobscured lay of the land and I do it voluntarily so I have no room to complain.

[Jeffh]

I believe that you can travel anywhere in the united states by car with firearms, as long as they are stored a certain way. I think they have to be locked up out of reach of the driver (not sure aboit passengers), unloaded, with ammo stored seperately. For instance, an unloade handgun stored in the trunck in a lockbox with the ammo stored in the back seat. Not sure, but the internet can help you.

[NS2]

I believe that you can travel anywhere in the united states by car with firearms, as long as they are stored a certain way. I think they have to be locked up out of reach of the driver (not sure aboit passengers), unloaded, with ammo stored seperately. For instance, an unloade handgun stored in the trunck in a lockbox with the ammo stored in the back seat. Not sure, but the internet can help you.

True.  Ammo type can be an issue in some places though.  There are laws and then there are the "laws" the locals decide.  If you need examples of this read about how many LEOs are confused/mis-informed/undertrained about the use of deadly force in Mas' books.  Sure, it ends up getting sorted out in the courts, but at what cost?  Cemeteries and prisons are filled with people who were "protected" by the law.

Legal transit is simple.  I was talking about having the weapon in a usable condition during travel.  Lock box and separated ammo is not part of that equation for me.  YMMV.

[MrAnderson]

Well, I waited too long to reply and now there's a huge list!  Thanks to all for your thoughts.  I'd like to thank Kathy Jackson and Chris Christian, in particular.  I have great respect for both of them.

Having said that, I'm still of the opinion that your particular lifestyle has something to do with the chance of being in a life-threatening situation.  (The example of home insurance isn't particularly germane to the discussion because accidents happen in the home and, thus, we have insurance - and it is usually required by the mortgage holder.)  Case in point, check out this recent article from Washington state: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2014221529_apwafatalkennewickshooting.html.  Notice the guy was arrested for growing marijuana?!  Think maybe his lifestyle involves illegal activities?  Maybe other individuals that practice illegal acts?  Yeah, "you play with fire, you're gonna get burned!"

Thus, while statistics can be misleading, they can also oversimplify results.  How many of those that use a firearm to defend themselves are involved in these types of illegal activities or legal activities that attract those types of individuals (e.g., alcohol consumption at establishments)?  I argue that a thorough review of the numbers would show that I am in less threat of bodily injury than most of the people represented by those statistics.  That is, we would need to look at who is represented by the numbers.

Now, I will remind everyone that I am NOT opposed to concealed carry.  As a matter of fact, if I didn't have this restriction from my employer, I would probably be carrying on a daily basis.  However, this restriction makes it very difficult to do regularly and, thus, it is not a normal part of my life and (what started this all) it is extremely difficult to think of paying ~$1500 on a training event.  Having said that, Bob mentioned and I thought of this after I sent my email to Bob, that there are more local training opportunities that I can avail myself of, for example, Firearms Academy of Seattle of which Kathy is affiliated.

BTW, the example of Susanna Hupp ( the "crazy" driving into Luby's restaurant in Texas and killing her mother and father right in front of her) was one I thought of on my own.  But, I don't even eat at fast-food restaurants!!  I mean, if you frequent places where lots of humanity gather, your risk naturally increases.  If you limit your exposure to gatherings, you can reduce your risk.  I'm not saying "stay away from people", I'm saying that I naturally "stay away from people!"

In conclusion, I support the 2nd amendment and the right to carry (without permits or fees) by all law-abiding citizens.  I just find it difficult to justify in my life at this time and I don't believe it's for everyone, all the time.  It's a personal decision and must be made by every individual, based on their specific circumstances.

Regards,
Dave

[54R_shooter]

All the data, statistics,news, and odds, wont save you if you need your firearm and you left it in the safe at home.

[Jeffh]

Yeah, I would agree with the previous post. I don't understand the potential benefit of not having a gun. I understand circumstances in which it is not possible (I endure them), but what do you envision as the benefit of not having a gun when you could? For me there is no potential benefit, and very real potential risks, of not carrying my gun. You can probably get away with not having one every day for the rest of your life, but I cannot imagine any benefit to that. The risk vs benefit analysis for me leaved me with an obvious conclusion. There is no benefit of not having a gun. The risk of not having it is a scenario in which people die because I played the odds and figured I probably could get away with it. If you are, for some reason 'called' to carry a gun for the defense of yourself or others, then do it. If you don't feel that 'calling', or that sense of responsibility for your own safety and in some circumstances, the safety of others, than don't. I believe that carrying a gun is a serious commitment that has very real and potentially fatal implications and is not to be taken casually. That's just my outlook on it, and anyone is free to disagree with me. Thanks for starting a very thought provokin topic, and be safe out there!
-Jeff

[Lawrence]

Speaking of stats. I had the chance to check the video on NRA EVP and CEO Wayne LaPierre - Speech to CPAC 2011 - Washington, DC, Mark posted recently and Wayne La Pierre brought very interesting numbers. Anyone interested inb stats should consider those numbers and make it a case for carrying a gun at all times.
In a week:
25.000 violent crimes,
300 americans are murdered,
78.000 are robbed,
15.000 will suffer a violent assault.
In 25 minutes:
6 women are  raped
40 robberies will take place,
50 people will be beaten.
Let the numbers speak.
Lawrence

[Bob Mayne]

Very good points 10sport64.  The original post was about statistics on death.  But you point out the statistics where people don't die.  Yet, having a gun could prevent them from being hurt, robbed, raped, etc.  Just because they don't die, doesn't mean it's not a terrible experience that can be prevented by carrying a gun and being ready and trained to use it.  One's life could be threatened but not necessarily ended.  In either case, a gun can be your best friend.

[Devereaux]

Somewhere or other I recently saw/heard of the trainer near Memphis. Now Memphis happens to have one of the highest violent attack rates in the nation, which will obviously affect the figures. And this trainer does pretty much all the CCW training for the licensees in the Memphis area. In the last 3 years I believe he has had something like 54 of his graduates involved in a violent encounter. 4 were without their weapons at the time - all were killed. The other 50 all were armed and all survived.

Now this gentleman trains thousands of TN citizens, so we can make a case of assault being very uncommon. But of those that WERE assaulted, 8% were unarmed - and died. 92% were armed - and lived. There are those statistics again.

[NS2]

Somewhere or other I recently saw/heard of the trainer near Memphis. Now Memphis happens to have one of the highest violent attack rates in the nation, which will obviously affect the figures. And this trainer does pretty much all the CCW training for the licensees in the Memphis area. In the last 3 years I believe he has had something like 54 of his graduates involved in a violent encounter. 4 were without their weapons at the time - all were killed. The other 50 all were armed and all survived.

Now this gentleman trains thousands of TN citizens, so we can make a case of assault being very uncommon. But of those that WERE assaulted, 8% were unarmed - and died. 92% were armed - and lived. There are those statistics again.

That 8% is 100% dead.  Numbers are fine if you want to play around with your life.  If you're serious about staying alive, you will carry your weapon.

[BikerRN]

Somewhere or other I recently saw/heard of the trainer near Memphis. Now Memphis happens to have one of the highest violent attack rates in the nation, which will obviously affect the figures. And this trainer does pretty much all the CCW training for the licensees in the Memphis area. In the last 3 years I believe he has had something like 54 of his graduates involved in a violent encounter. 4 were without their weapons at the time - all were killed. The other 50 all were armed and all survived.

Now this gentleman trains thousands of TN citizens, so we can make a case of assault being very uncommon. But of those that WERE assaulted, 8% were unarmed - and died. 92% were armed - and lived. There are those statistics again.

I believe the trainer you are referring to is none other than Tom Givens.

He's on my "short list" of trainers to attend.

Biker

[Lawrence]

Very good points 10sport64.  The original post was about statistics on death.  But you point out the statistics where people don't die.  Yet, having a gun could prevent them from being hurt, robbed, raped, etc.  Just because they don't die, doesn't mean it's not a terrible experience that can be prevented by carrying a gun and being ready and trained to use it.  One's life could be threatened but not necessarily ended.  In either case, a gun can be your best friend.

You got that right Bob. Since we don't know which attack will result in death or "severe bodlily harm" we can always guess the outcome of a violent encounter. A guy who works at ammo section in Walmart here in Charlotte said he fought in Vietnam, had tough times but never got hurt. He said he was attacked a few times,   back here  since then,  and had surgery due to knife wounds to the abdomen in the last assault. Now he's always armed in and out. I don't blame him. He refuses to be in the "death stats" group. He's with the survivors instead. In my CCW class there were 5 women, two of them ( 62 nand 48 YO) were seeking training because of previous life threatening situations.