concealed carry, BUGs, first aid, and morality

[penguinofdoom]

I recently got first aid and cpr certified at work. While on a break I was asking the instructor if they offer more advanced classes specifically one for or one containing gun shot wounds. There was only one co-worker in the room at the time, a former military man, who asked why I would bother. I tried explaining that if I'm going to shoot I want to be able to understand and treat the wounds it would cause. He said if you shoot you shoot to kill so why administer first aid. But what if someone's shooting at me and hits a loved one? What if, God forbid, I hit an innocent bystander?

If I pull that trigger I understand that the ultimate result might be that person's death. I accept that. But I have many choices before that point arrives that will not result in death and I would really prefer not to kill someone if I don't have to. If there is a situation in which the threat has been neutralized and it's feel safe enough to stick around, would you administer first aid to the bad guy if he was lying there on the ground bleeding to death?

For that matter, why do we carry a gun and a BUG? Why not a gun and a taser? If some kid snatches my purse and I have a gun on my hip and a BUG in my pocket, I'm not going to shoot him. But if I have a taser in my pocket instead, you better believe I'm going to taze his sorry butt until he pees himself.

If I'm standing in line at a store and someone attempts to rob them, do I become involved? Of course if he shoots anyone I will consider him an immediate threat but if he demands the money, I'm not next to him, he doesn't shoot anyone, do I use my gun? I'm the one who has to deal with the legal, social, and moral repercussions. For what, to save a store a few hundred dollars.

[BikerRN]

I recently got first aid and cpr certified at work. While on a break I was asking the instructor if they offer more advanced classes specifically one for or one containing gun shot wounds. There was only one co-worker in the room at the time, a former military man, who asked why I would bother. I tried explaining that if I'm going to shoot I want to be able to understand and treat the wounds it would cause. He said if you shoot you shoot to kill so why administer first aid. But what if someone's shooting at me and hits a loved one? What if, God forbid, I hit an innocent bystander?

If I pull that trigger I understand that the ultimate result might be that person's death. I accept that. But I have many choices before that point arrives that will not result in death and I would really prefer not to kill someone if I don't have to. If there is a situation in which the threat has been neutralized and it's feel safe enough to stick around, would you administer first aid to the bad guy if he was lying there on the ground bleeding to death?

For that matter, why do we carry a gun and a BUG? Why not a gun and a taser? If some kid snatches my purse and I have a gun on my hip and a BUG in my pocket, I'm not going to shoot him. But if I have a taser in my pocket instead, you better believe I'm going to taze his sorry butt until he pees himself.

If I'm standing in line at a store and someone attempts to rob them, do I become involved? Of course if he shoots anyone I will consider him an immediate threat but if he demands the money, I'm not next to him, he doesn't shoot anyone, do I use my gun? I'm the one who has to deal with the legal, social, and moral repercussions. For what, to save a store a few hundred dollars.

First off, congrats on learning first aid and cpr. That gets a big thumbs up from me!

I will disagree on the shooting to kill part however. You are shooting to stop the action that is threatening you and those under your mantle of protection. The end result may be lethal, but that's not the intent. The intent is to stop the action. I'll try to explain:

It's 0230 HRS and Billy Badguy just entered my home displaying the behavior and actions that leads me to believe that he intends to harm those in the home, me and mine. I shoot one round from my handcannon, belching flame and knocking plaster off the wall. Billy turns in to a wimpering simpleton, falling to the floor and urinating all over himself, and unable to make coherant sentences. That round fired didn't strike Billy, but rather went in to the floor at my feet because I violated a safety rule and had my finger on the trigger before my sights were aligned on Billy.

I contend that I executed a sucessful one shot stop, as Billy stopped after I fired one round. The fact that he is alive or dead is not my concern. My only concern is that he stop, and right dang now!

Now past expirience has taught us that the above scenario is not a realistic representation of what really happens in lethal encounters, and that the Billies of this world will more than likely need more than one round, and placed in a location that is likely to cause death to effect a cessation of the activities threatening you and your's. Also, warning shots and rounds not striking their intended target are a bad deal for safety concerns, as well as legal. It could be argued that if someone has the opportunity to fire a warning shot that they weren't really in fear of their life. That and the fact that I am responsible for where every bullet I fire ends up leads me to want to put them in the intended target in a location most likely to stop the threatening action. I didn't ask to be threatened, nor do I desire to shoot Billy. The thing is though, of all the options available to me, shooting Billy is the best option if I am to continue respirations. It is the best available choice, of several bad choices. It's sort of like the "lesswer of evils".

Knowing how to stabilize and treat wounded people can be very beneficial. It could be you administering self aide until the Paramedics arrive, treating family, or even an innocent bystander. As for treating Billy, NO! Billy made his choice when he forced me to shoot him. He will have to live or die with the consequences. Also, there are very real safety concerns with getting that close to an attacker after he is down. Besides, Billy morphed in to what I call THE BEAST when he attacked me. My one and only job is to stop said Beast. After that is done you will not most likely find me going up to the Beast and poking it with a sharp stick, which is what first aide would be on a wounded adversary.

I am the trained first responder. I need to ensure my safety so that others may remain safe. There is a hierarchy of sorts for these things that goes like this: (your's may vary)

Self
Loved Ones
Other Responders
Surrounding Innocent Parties
Society As A Whole
Billy

As to the BUG, I am a huge fan of carrying multiple guns.

I have had two malfunctions with Revolvers over the years. Unlike an autoloading platform, when a Revolver jams you most likely will need either a Vise, or the services of a Gunsmith to get the wheelie back up and functioning. That is not something you have in a gunfight, nor the time. Also, depending on where the BUG is carried it may be faster to draw than the primary weapon. I had to draw a BUG one night to stop an 8" Kitchen Knife from penetrating my gut. My primary hand was busy deflecting the blade.

People's eyes are generally drawn to what is threatening them. It would stand to reason that if you confront Billy with a handgun it would naturally draw his eye. If he has a gun of his own, being that his eyes are drawn to your weapon, his hands will likely follow his eyes. Hence, his shots will tend to cluster around your gun. Try this little expirment at a dimly lit Range if you can.

Weapon Mounted Light
Illuminate Target with light (focus light beam and concentrate it on the head)
Aim for the belly

I think you will find that your shots, the majority of them, will be higher than the belly. This is not an aiming technique, but rather I'm hoping to show you that the eyes are drawn to the threat and that the bullets you fire tend to follow the eyes. I hope my example makes sense. So, with rounds coming towards your gun there is a real liklihood of your weapon being relegated hors de combat. Thus having a second gun, much like a reload, to continue the fight makes sense. It's not so you can keep shooting after the threat has past, but rather to keep shooting as long as the threat is there.

Biker

[SirBrass]

People's eyes are generally drawn to what is threatening them. It would stand to reason that if you confront Billy with a handgun it would naturally draw his eye. If he has a gun of his own, being that his eyes are drawn to your weapon, his hands will likely follow his eyes. Hence, his shots will tend to cluster around your gun. Try this little expirment at a dimly lit Range if you can.

Weapon Mounted Light
Illuminate Target with light (focus light beam and concentrate it on the head)
Aim for the belly

I think you will find that your shots, the majority of them, will be higher than the belly. This is not an aiming technique, but rather I'm hoping to show you that the eyes are drawn to the threat and that the bullets you fire tend to follow the eyes. I hope my example makes sense. So, with rounds coming towards your gun there is a real liklihood of your weapon being relegated hors de combat. Thus having a second gun, much like a reload, to continue the fight makes sense. It's not so you can keep shooting after the threat has past, but rather to keep shooting as long as the threat is there.

Biker

I'd never thought of that.  However, right now a BUG is not in my ability carry both comfortably AND discretely 24/7 like my primary is.  I DO however carry an edged tool (4" tactical folder) which, though it is my "everything knife", is also highly effective if I have to go to a backup in a fight if the guy is within range.

When I figure out how to reliably, discretely, and comfortably carry a BUG like I do my primary, then I'll seriously put planning into action to get myself so equipped (LC9 in a lefthand IWB or appendix IWB perhaps?).

Until then, I'll keep my standard 24/7 concealed loadout:  light, blade on lefthand side; full-sized spare mag in IWB mag carrier in lefthand appendix location, and Primary carried either in IWB or OWB near 3 O'Clock.  That works and is discrete.  It's just that I have a hard time seeing how to add yet another gun and spare magazine for that gun to that loadout without making it overly burdensome or non-discrete.

[Chris]

Penguin,
I do not know of any place that normally teaches straight GSW medical response. But, there are a number of community colleges across the country that teach the basic EMT 1 paramedic course (when I took it in Florida three decades ago it was called EME 160... I don't know what they call it now, but there are community colleges that offer that training). It goes well beyond basic First Aid. It's a lengthy course that prepares you to take the State exams to become certified as a EMT 1. It's good training. As for rendering first aid to a violent attacker that forced me to shoot him... I think I would rather back off... call 911... keep my eyes peeled in the event he has any accomplices/friends... and try to preserve the physical evidence at that scene. I am not obligated to render emergency medical care to him... and to do so may place me in further jeopardy from any further actions he may commit while I am in close contact with him... and will detract from my primary... and lawfully mandatted responsibility... which is to protect my life and the lives of others I am charged to protect. It's not my fault I shot him. His violent actions forced me to do that, in order to protect my life. It's unfortunate that shots had to be fired, but it was his actions that caused it.
Chris Christian   

[Devereaux]

Biker's comment about the eyes naturally looking at the threat is very well supported by lots of data that shows many gunfights in which one side or the other suffered wounds in the gun hand/arm - NOT "center mass" or other more appropriate zones. People glom onto what appears to be the biggest worry, and a gun is generally so considered by the untrained. Unfortunately, it's the opponent's MIND that is the most dangerous part.

[roblee]

The next step beyond layperson CPR FA is a course called WFA. Wilderness First Aid and Remote Care. I teach itforboth the Girl Scouts an Boy Scouts. It is actually required for high adventure trips now. The course is at least 16 hours and two days long.  Generally taught out of doors.

Awesome good time.

Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk

[BikerRN]

I'd never thought of that.  However, right now a BUG is not in my ability carry both comfortably AND discretely 24/7 like my primary is.  I DO however carry an edged tool (4" tactical folder) which, though it is my "everything knife", is also highly effective if I have to go to a backup in a fight if the guy is within range.

When I figure out how to reliably, discretely, and comfortably carry a BUG like I do my primary, then I'll seriously put planning into action to get myself so equipped (LC9 in a lefthand IWB or appendix IWB perhaps?).

Until then, I'll keep my standard 24/7 concealed loadout:  light, blade on lefthand side; full-sized spare mag in IWB mag carrier in lefthand appendix location, and Primary carried either in IWB or OWB near 3 O'Clock.  That works and is discrete.  It's just that I have a hard time seeing how to add yet another gun and spare magazine for that gun to that loadout without making it overly burdensome or non-discrete.

Not to derail the thread, but I'd suggest a fixed blade knife over a folder for defensive purposes, if legal.

If you've never tried to open a folding knife while somebody is sitting on your chest, I suggest you do. You may find, like I did, that opening a folder may end up being a pipe dream. Also, there is nothing that says a BUG can't be a smaller gun. There is a place for a J-Frame as a BUG, carried either in a pocket or on the ankle. Personally the smallest autoloader I would consider is something like the Glock 26, and that's for reliability reasons.

OK, back to our regularly scheduled program.  

Biker

[penguinofdoom]

I like the Kershaw spring assisted opening for easy open folding blades. I'm sure other brands have the same thing. Fixed blades are too long for me.

So why aren't we carrying a gun, a bug, and a less than lethal option. If billy bad guy comes in my home out comes the shotgun and no mercy. He will stop whether by his own choice or mine. But again, what happens when some kid thinks he's tough and isn't necessarily a life threatening danger. No all bad guys bring the same level of threat, it's not always escalated to red alert status. Sometimes we want someone to stop and the gun is simply too high a level of violence. From my legal understanding, which is limited, you must meet force with equal force, you cannot escalate what is being brought to you or you can be in trouble. I still think sometimes a gun is too high a reaction.

Oh, and I just picked up a s&w j-frame this weekend. Bruised up my hand shooting it the first time and when I lay it on top of my XD-9 subcompact it seems to be the same size but the j-frame fits in my pocket while my xd definately does not. I will need to finish my 1000 round trigger job on it though.

[SirBrass]

I'd never thought of that.  However, right now a BUG is not in my ability carry both comfortably AND discretely 24/7 like my primary is.  I DO however carry an edged tool (4" tactical folder) which, though it is my "everything knife", is also highly effective if I have to go to a backup in a fight if the guy is within range.

When I figure out how to reliably, discretely, and comfortably carry a BUG like I do my primary, then I'll seriously put planning into action to get myself so equipped (LC9 in a lefthand IWB or appendix IWB perhaps?).

Until then, I'll keep my standard 24/7 concealed loadout:  light, blade on lefthand side; full-sized spare mag in IWB mag carrier in lefthand appendix location, and Primary carried either in IWB or OWB near 3 O'Clock.  That works and is discrete.  It's just that I have a hard time seeing how to add yet another gun and spare magazine for that gun to that loadout without making it overly burdensome or non-discrete.

Not to derail the thread, but I'd suggest a fixed blade knife over a folder for defensive purposes, if legal.

If you've never tried to open a folding knife while somebody is sitting on your chest, I suggest you do. You may find, like I did, that opening a folder may end up being a pipe dream. Also, there is nothing that says a BUG can't be a smaller gun. There is a place for a J-Frame as a BUG, carried either in a pocket or on the ankle. Personally the smallest autoloader I would consider is something like the Glock 26, and that's for reliability reasons.

Actually I can ably open this folder one handed and quickly, with a snap-flick of the wrist as long as my off-hand can get to it.  I've practiced, and I can do it consistently.  The blade also stays open and has never wavered on unlocking either.  It's cold steel recon IV with tanto point and lower half is serrated.

[glvnet]

I think it is very important to know first aid specially for gun shot wounds. I am going to take the same class you took, but in the meantime I have picked up a few literature here and there on more complex stuff. I also carry a very well equipped First Aid kit in my car and I also keep a product call quikclot and celox (both) in my range bag or in my cargo pants. Those two products help in stopping bleeding as they contain a substance that speeds up coagulation. If I am forced to use my gun in a defensive situation and the person does not die but stops the attack, I am pretty sure I would try to keep him alive if I can assure my safety. I would much rather get that person prosecuted and go to jail than me taking a human being life. Plus, when going to court it would probably look better for me because I would be showing intent to stop a bad guy, but not necessarily to kill him...that is a preference, but if to stop the threat I am forced to go to the ultimate extend then so be it. I accept that scenario as well when I decided to own a firearm. Also, most importantly than saving an attacker is saving yourself and/or people around. If there is a gun fight there could be more than one person injured and it is better if you can increase your chances of survival if you can contain the situation until the ambulance arrives.

On the other topic, I do not carry a BUG, but I do have a taser that looks like a cell phone. Carrying a non-lethal weapon in my opinion gives you more choices. The problem with my taser is that to be effective I would have to be way too close to the attacker, but again it gives me choices.

[jmstevens2]

The next step beyond layperson CPR FA is a course called WFA. Wilderness First Aid and Remote Care. I teach itforboth the Girl Scouts an Boy Scouts. It is actually required for high adventure trips now. The course is at least 16 hours and two days long.  Generally taught out of doors.

Awesome good time.

Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk

As an EMS instructor, I would suggest finding a first responder course. While WFA is OK, it looks at long term care, hours not minutes, days not hours. The first responder course is about all emergency medical care, injuries and illness, but it focuses on the first 10 minutes. It is expected more advanced care will arrive by then. There is more on the body, systems, and how they interact, and preparing for transport.
In Ohio it is a 40 hour course, and there is a national registry certification for it if you want.
The course is designed for fire departments that do not have EMTs, cops, and it is what those companies that are large and have response teams on site. First responders can treat, but are not designed to transport. It is the most basic of the flavors of EMT.
I teach The Heart Assn First Aid and used to teach the Red Cross course. I think they both do little but teach you to call 911 do CPR and stop bleeding. I don't have much use for either course to be honest.

[SirBrass]

as long as my off-hand can get to it

Carry multiples of the same edged weapon in several locations so you can always reach at least one.  Or...carry the one on your centerline IWB.

I don't have the pocket space for that.  My knife is located on my weak-hand side clipped to inside my front pocket.  If my strong side is downed or pinned, I can get to that.  If my weak side is downed or pinned, then I'll be reaching with my strong hand for my primary or already engaging with my primary.

And if the BG has both sides pinned or disabled, either I'll be biting his legs off (black knight, ref....  ), kicking his nuts around, or I'm SOL.

[Chris]

If you have a primary gun strong side and a J-frame in a the weak side pant pocket (with you hand on it if things look a bit "hinky") you have a much better chance of not winding up on the ground pinned. Just a thought from an old guy, but a knife is a contact weapon. I don't want to do contact, even though I do carry a nice Tanto clip folder in strong side front pocket. A gun is a distance weapon. Distance is my friend. If I have to go to the knife, it sucks to be me.
Chris Christian

[SirBrass]

Chris, I agree.  Once I get the logistics figured out (and that includes finances), a BUG is something I'd like to invest in (namely a J-frame for various reasons, including that a cylinder pushes the grip out a bit and would allow a more quick grasp in a desperate reach for the BUG if murphy hits full bore).  Until then, I'm going with a single firearm, fullsized spare mag, light, and knife along with cell phone.

I can't everything I'd like, right?

[Chris]

Scott,
I can't argue with a blade in hand. I do carry one. But, at my age I'd rather not have to deal with a BG that close, so I love my snubby. If I can back up and create some distance, I'm in better shape. If that fails and I get grabbed, at contact distance (meaning jammed as close as a knife) a snubby cuts five times, with more trauma than all but the luckiest knife cuts, and the noise can disorient.... or at least make the perp uncomfortable, and realize he's getting is ass shot off. Since my hand is already on the grip in my pocket, it's quick to employ if I have to (faster, for me, than a knife), and might give me good chance to get to my G29 with 175 grain Silvertips. And, if both of those fail... I still have the knife... although if I can't handle the situation by backing up, increasing distance, five 135 grain Speer+Ps, and then 10 10mms... I'm probably screwed. But, what the heck... I gave it my best shot! Knives are great, but at my age I'd rather use what little situational awareness I have left to not put me in a situation where I have to depend on one. You young guys go ahead and cut, slash & stab. Me, I'd rather just back pedal and shoot.
Chris Christian

[jmstevens2]

This discussion reminds me of Gail's bayonet. Is that at least a decent knife? Is that a zombie thing, "oh crap I am out of ammo, Fix Bayonets!"
That thing was funny, I don't care who you are!

[SirBrass]

This discussion reminds me of Gail's bayonet. Is that at least a decent knife? Is that a zombie thing, "oh crap I am out of ammo, Fix Bayonets!"
That thing was funny, I don't care who you are!

I still want to see that video.  The video link was already busted when I listened to the podcast.

[penguinofdoom]

LOL. We all need utility belts. A gun, BUG, fixed blade knife, back up knife, flashlight, tazer, and just for good measure how about some pepper spray...

[Devereaux]

LOL. We all need utility belts. A gun, BUG, fixed blade knife, back up knife, flashlight, tazer, and just for good measure how about some pepper spray...

In a way I totally know what you mean. But we're all somewhat paranoid here. Pretty much everyone here believes we need to carry, and that in itself sets us apart from much of the rest of the nation. From there it's only what you do to determine the level of stuff you feel uncomfortable without. Some carry a weapon. Some with an extra mag. Some with two mags. Then we get to two guns and extra mags, and then a knife, maybe TWO knives, and a light - or two. There really isn't a one-suit-fits-all approach to this issue. Nor does there need to be - everyone simply finds his or her own level of comfort.

[jmstevens2]

I am all about being prepared, but at what point do you cross over to paranoia? I see some of these guys that actually wear a gun belt with all this crap on it. Back when I was a cop, I didn't even carry all that stuff. I had my gun, mace, cuffs, baton holder and speedloaders that's it!  I used a Mag Light as both a baton and flashlight (if it was dark) And where we were the portable radio was useless so there was no point carrying it.
We had guys with not an open inch on their belt, the things weighed 25 pounds it seemed.
I see people doing this for cc. If you have too much, it becomes nearly impossible to conceal.
Carry what you feel you need, but be real. If I shoot someone, they can wait till I can go to the truck for a fak. Daytime, I am not carrying a flashlight unless I will be out past dark.
I carry 1 spare mag, if I need more than 30 rounds, or more than 1 major malfunction I am probably out of the fight anyway. I do usually have my .380 with laser sight in my pocket in case the carry gun is lost to me, but not too much else, a pocket knife and phone, wallets (I do carry a throw away wallet) and even this to me seems like a lot to carry.
How much is too much?
But that is just my opinion.