concealed carry, BUGs, first aid, and morality

[jmstevens2]

Right, but here in Ohio as I an certified statewide, I have a legal duty to act statewide. The level of care is less since I am not under protocol, but the duty to act is still there.

On a less legal note, Chris has a point as there is legal precident when Dr McCoy tried to treat Gorkon and he died, in "the Undiscovered Country" the Klingons held him negligent for not saving him. They sentenced him and Captain Kirk to life Prison on a Penal Planet.

Hee hee
Oh wait, I didn't commit a copyright violation did I?

I wonder if a lawyer really could do something with that. I have never heard of it being done though.

[Jeffh]

I am state and nationally certified as well, and I know for a fact that I do not have a duty to act, under state or national protocols while off duty, or while on duty in any situation where I was not specifically assigned to act. This applies to all EMS personnel in the areas I have worked, but I can't speak to RN's, MD's and the like. It may be different elsewhere, but I was also a washington state EMT, and it was the same there. I have acted many times while off duty, but I would have been covered under good samaritan laws as I had no legal duty to act. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but in order for negligence to have occurred there need to be
-A legal duty to act
-A breach of that duty
-A harm caused to the patient
-The breech of duty must have caused the harm
Without all of these factors, a negligence case cannot be made. Though in civil litigation, the burden of proof is on the defendant, so anythings possible I guess. I would not take any of your state's protocols to mean that you are to put yourself in danger to provide care.

[Devereaux]

Right, but here in Ohio as I an certified statewide, I have a legal duty to act statewide. The level of care is less since I am not under protocol, but the duty to act is still there.

On a less legal note, Chris has a point as there is legal precident when Dr McCoy tried to treat Gorkon and he died, in "the Undiscovered Country" the Klingons held him negligent for not saving him. They sentenced him and Captain Kirk to life Prison on a Penal Planet.

Hee hee
Oh wait, I didn't commit a copyright violation did I?

I wonder if a lawyer really could do something with that. I have never heard of it being done though.

I believe you need to check that far more closely. I would submit that you have an ability to act statewide, but not a legal duty to do so. If you DO stop, you will then be held to the standards of your training AND the circumstances. So, if you don't have equipment to do a necessary procedure, you will not be held responsible for not doing that procedure. You should turn over any care to whomever arrives on the scene and has appropriate training and equipment and the requirement to apply aid - like an ambulance crew.

If you shoot someone, and then attempt to save their lives, it IS possible that a cheezy lawyer may try to make that out as further attacking the perp. While that might seem fairly easy to dispell, I really don't believe it is a good idea, as you are still stressed from the situation so may not act to your fullest ability - and even with Good Samaritan laws may have some difficulty showing just what you did. Especially if the perp lives. I would take Biker's view, and leave well enough alone. Help those of yours that might need help, and leave the perp to whatever response comes. If you recollect, the shooting in California where the two guys in body armor walked all over the place shooting all kind of stuff, the mother complained that her son was left to lie on the ground while cops and others were cared for first. Well, duh! I don't believe anything came of that, but trash IS out there.

[Chris]

I'm certain that the Klingons have different laws than we do here on planet Earth. And, in all liklihood, different lawyers. Should I ever come across an injured Klingon I'll try to obey their laws. In the event that doesn't happen, however, I'll choose to deal with the laws and lawyers we have on Earth.  
Chris Christian

[jmstevens2]

As to the duty to act, that is my understanding, I will ask Carol about that. My understanding is that that is part of being certified, especially if employed by and the training being paid for by a public entity. As to the state protocols, there are none. There are state mandates, and requirements, as well as laws, but protocols are the responsibility of the medical direction. County or regional protocols often come form the EMS section of the local AMA and adopted or changed locally. The state sets the standard of care. When not in your jurisdiction as you are not under your medical directors control you technically are nothing unless otherwise under a MD license.
As the MD is delegating their license to you, much of what you do or do not do is at their discretion. Ours has said thet we are obliged to provide care anywhere in the state on or off duty if we are aware of the need and able to provide it.

Maybe that is just us, but she holds my card in her hand, we are required to follow her orders unless we receive another one.

Too much legaliese, my head hurts. I do recall from both my cop days and EMS days that it is much easier to defend what you did, than what you failed to do.
Really, all they have to do is convince 12 people that didn't get out of jury duty that there is a 51% chance you did what they charge that you did in civil.
Again, just thinking out loud.

[BikerRN]

Generally speaking, legal duty to act is a contractual thing. You are NOT required by law to assist anywhere except where your job requires. Most of the time, there are Good Samaritan laws that protect those who provide first aid, even when acting as paramedics. Those same laws cover physicians, but to a much lesser degree. Whatever the law, acting when you have skill sets above those of the average citizen DOES potentially expose you to liability.

It is my understanding that unless I am on duty I have no more duty to act than any other person.

Like I said before, I don't make a habit of poking sleeping dangerous animals with a sharp stick, and that is what the Beast that forced me to shoot him is. First the scene has to be rendered safe, and that won't be until the evil-doer is restrained in handcuffs and searched for weapons.

Please don't take what I am saying as legal advice, as it's not! It is only what I have concluded is best for me in such a situation. Your mileage may vary.

Biker

[Lawrence]

It's interesting to see how many excuses one can find to nullify the revolver as a BUG. Revolver can malfunction and require less care. It does require some care. When you get yourself a good, reliable, time proven revolver, take good care of him... that same one will take good care of you. As mechanical devices revolvers can break and malfunction. I have revolvers and semi-autos in my little arsenal and only carry  the ones I ran at least 500 shots  with it. When you pull the trigger of a revolver and it doesn't fires, there is a high chance of you having a cheap, unreliable ammo. Do you feed yourself with bad stuff? Feed your revolver with good ammo.
Oh yeah! There's always a place for a good revolver on my system.
If I had only one gun, this would be my option:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765947_-1_757773_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
BTW: My primary gun is a 9 mm semi-auto, guess what my bug is? A J-frame.
   

[penguinofdoom]

Someone pointed out something recently that I never would have thought of, in a close up situation a revolver can be pushed against someone's body and fire whereas a semiauto might not work due to the slide if pushed against someone.

[Chris]

Penguin,
Shoving the muzzle a semi-auto against someone will push the slide out of battery and prevent it from firing. You can check this for yourself by taking an EMPTY semi-auto and just pressing it againsts your hand and trying to pull the trigger.  The exceptions to that are the blow back tip up barrel models (Taurus and Berreta Tomcat). Revolvers don't suffer that ill. In a "contact" situation I'll take a revolver.... and a contact situation is a distinct possibility if you have to go to a BUG.
Chris Christian

[Lawrence]

Someone pointed out something recently that I never would have thought of, in a close up situation a revolver can be pushed against someone's body and fire whereas a semiauto might not work due to the slide if pushed against someone.

The recoil spring guiding rod on the XD protudes a bit from the frame. I never had the chance to test it but it's been said that would serve to that purpose.
On the other hand if you get too close with a external hammered (not cocked) revolver and someone hold the cylinder the gun won't fire. Careful with the ones with the internal hammer. It would be fatal.

[NS2]

Muzzle contact with the semi-auto pistol.



It's called a Force Block Alternative.  It's sort of an obnoxious thing, but it really works for compliance issues.  Certainly not a better idea than a revolver.

[NS2]

Someone pointed out something recently that I never would have thought of, in a close up situation a revolver can be pushed against someone's body and fire whereas a semiauto might not work due to the slide if pushed against someone.

The recoil spring guiding rod on the XD protudes a bit from the frame. I never had the chance to test it but it's been said that would serve to that purpose.
On the other hand if you get too close with a external hammered (not cocked) revolver and someone hold the cylinder the gun won't fire. Careful with the ones with the internal hammer. It would be fatal.

On the Glocks, you can use an non-captured guide rod like the ones from Wolff.  Use the G20 for the G17 size guns and the G17 rod for he G19 size guns.  They stick out about 1/2" and can help mitigate, but not solve, the contact/battery issue.

[Chris]

You can certainly tie up a revolver and prevent it from firing with a strong grip on the cylinder. If you are able to wrench the revolver free it will function normally and only require one hand to fire, leaving your other hand free for whatever else is required of it at the moment (palm thrust to the nose, finger in the eye, whatever). If you have a semi-auto and someone applies a strong grip to the slide, and you are able fire a round from the gun, you will have a FTE... and a malfunction that will take two hands to clear. If you're in that situation, you may not have two hands available. At contact range, please give me a revolver.... preferrably in .357 so their is plenty of propellent gas to follow the bullet into the wound channel and increase tissue damage and trauma. Given that situation, I doubt if I would even feel the increased recoil, and excess muzzle blast is quite likely to be muffled by the BGs body.
Chris Christian

[Lawrence]

Good points Chris. I am fond  to that S&W I mentioned above (please follow the link). The Night Guard . It fits that role you just mentioned. .357 mag. 8 rounds. Awesome gun.

[Bob Mayne]

Plus,  semiauto fired from within your pocket (i.e. Coat pocket) will probably only fire once. But a revolver probably won't jam and you will more than one shot off if needed. I almost walked out of a gun store with an LCR .38 with an XS front sight. Something held me back. I went back to that store 3 days later and it was gone. I think the XS sight on revolvers is a good setup.

[Lawrence]

I am considering XS-sights for my XD-45C.
They have the big dot and a smaller one. Which one should I go for?

[BikerRN]

I am considering XS-sights for my XD-45C.
They have the big dot and a smaller one. Which one should I go for?

That's like asking which thong you should wear. 

Personally I don't wear a thong. I've tried the XS system, even have the smaller of the two dots on one of my Hi Powers, but it's not my preferred system. That's just me though. I'd suggest you find somebody that has the XS System and try it first. As I age, a daily thing it seems, the closer I get to the big five-oh, the more and more I like gold bead front sights with a wider rear sight notch.

Biker

[penguinofdoom]

The s&w .38 I picked up has a front dot and a port, I chose this one specifically because of that. I like it a lot more than the little nub most pocket revolvers come with.