Body armor testing

[Robin]

In my work (my real job), I shoot ballistic panels of various makeup all the time.

I don't know if you're muzzled by an NDA, but I would love to hear your opinion regarding the merits of different typs of ballistic material.

1. What would you consider "the best" in terms of Level IIIa vest protection versus weight.
2. What would you consider "the best" in terms of Level IIIa vest protection versus flexibility.
3. Have you heard anything regarding commercialization of vests doped with anti-newtonian liquids?
4. Any opinion regarding Dragon Skin armor?

[Doc Wesson]

Robin,
I'm sorry.. somehow I missed this.. but finally have come across it.
As far as vests go... I like Safariland.  They are the first to hit the new NIJ standards... which is no small feat. Ballistic protection is a strange arena... especially personal protection and more specific vests.  There are many combinations of ballsitic fibers and fabric styles available... There really is no component spec, but a performance spec, such as in the NIJ standards..  So if you can make cotton do the trick... goodonya.... I find that the finer denier KM2, 29 and 129 fibers (in that order) do a good job both in flexibility and protection.  But they are $$$$$$$$$$$$...  Now.. I am doing a lot of work with unidirectional fabrics (crossed at 90 degrees).  They seem to improve ballistic performance but don't do much for flexibility, they require a stitch or more typically, film/coating to hold them in place.
This is generic stuff....
Now #3.. why yes, I do know quite a bit about shear thickening treatment on ballistic fabrics.. I am developing them... and that is all I can say about it.... but, don't believe a bunch of hype..  It is kinda like the word "nano" if you know what I mean.....not saying that there isn't merit to some of them.. but there are other really good treatments that work very good.. some of them, mine.
Dragon skin....... I haven't done much with it.. but from what I have, and what I have read... I'd rather have Kevlar.  Stick with the devil you know, kinda thing....
I do have some really interesting Helmet developments I'm working on.. new generation stuff...gonna have to end that one there.........

[Robin]

Thanks for the reply. I searched Safariland's website (and associated ABA, Second Chance sites) but couldn't find any mention of KM2 fabric. Is there a trade name it's more commonly known by?

I'm operating under the assumption that more flexible means fewer layers which translates into lighter weight and reduced heat retention. There may also be some opportunities for increased coverage due to the greater flexibility. Please correct me if I'm wrong regarding any of this.

Of course the drawback to increased flexiblity would be greater vulnerability to blunt trauma but I'd be willing to make that tradeoff. I have a couple more years before I need to get a new vest but I'm always interested in learning about new technology developments. Thanks again for all your help.

[RichardInFlorida]

Doc -

A couple of questions...

The new NIJ standards...are they really needed?  Other than the fiasco with the one line of fibers that Second Chance used a few years ago, I've never heard of a vest failing to perform as advertised (stopping rounds it was rated for).  In fact, I've seen old vests shot that were years "out of date" that still did the job.

I spent a long time reading through the new standards (there is a LOT of specifics in the testing), and while I feel confident that the standards are good, I got the impression that they are overdone.  Will the new standards cause vests to be larger and bulkier, and therefore less comfortable?  I know the old SC Monarch I used to wear was FAR more comfortable than the current ABA vest I wear.  One of my partners was just issued a new Safariland vest (to the new standards) and he is not a fan.  He says it is less flexible, and maybe a touch heavier.

Thanks,

Richard

[Daeglan]

Hey Doc.

If one were to go shopping for vests is there a good place to get info so you can make educated decisions that are not based on marketing hype?

[Doc Wesson]

Gang.. I am sorry for missing this thread yet again.. Robin and Richard.. hope you pick it up despite my best efforts to miss it...
Are the new NIJs needed?  That is an excellent question.  For performance my opinion is NO.. For supply control by the govt.  the answer is YES.  Basically, this is a way to weed out small companies making vests.. they have made the new standards about $25,000 per iteration per type.  For a small producer.. that is detrimental.  From full experience.. it is impossible to take one sample and see it all the way through.. there is data scatter and other tests to be performed so it becomes an astronomical figure at that point to produce sample iterations and see it to final testing, just to find out it didn't pass the tumble test.... thus killing small businesses producing the armor.  This has become so true.. that it is hurting DuPont in a very significant way, to the point that they will pay for all the testing.. IF AND ONLY IF it is using Kevlar and IT PASSES... So if you get through everything thinking you are going to get massive rebate from DuPont and it fails.. you are SOL.. It is really meant so that only the big guys survive.
Larger and Bulkier!! You said it... that is it.. and that is why Safariland passed as your partner has so rightfully pointed out.  Right now, we all have the same toys to play with and those toys produce the vests by the new standard by being bigger.. and thus stiffer.  So you are spot on with that.  Now.. Safariland has them working a bit lighter than the next vest that passes... so that is why they are near the top now. 
This is where I and my company come in.. working on a way to pass it and reduce the weight and stiffness... it is going to take a major discovery to put a serious dent in it and we are making progress... we won't produce vests, but the solution to make the vest makers succeed thus getting all the cookies... we hope.  But I gotta get the ECH out of the way first.. that is the biggest thing going... since it is for the ENTIRE FREE STANDING FRIENDLY MILITARIES OF THE WORLD.  Hey if I get that one... I might even get my on Wiki entry... LOL!!
The Second Chance Blowout.. was from Zylon which is PBO (poly(p-phenylene-2,6-benzobisoxazole))... say that 10 times real fast...
It is fantastic polymer and thus fiber... very very strong... the problem was the MASSIVE degradation that happened to it.  PBO is really affected by UV light, moisture and anything slightly acidic.. the PBO monomer is produced by using a type of non-oxidizing protic acid (see where this is going??).  That isn't so bad as long as the fiber is washed clean and neutralized.. However, a little acid left over and BOOM: ACID HYDROLYSIS.. murder on the polymer.. this is why they broke down so FAST...
Robin,  KM2 is the fiber.. the fabrics have industry styles like 5706, 5705.. etc.. depending on the fiber merge, how the fiber is produced and the denier.  This is then put into fabrics of varying construction, style (whether plain weave or a Harness Satin (HS)) and weight.. Then plied up.. to threat.  You are spot on.. lighter and flexible means less layering... that simple.. however, the finer denier, tighter fabrics, which are subsequently lighter.. put into MORE PLIES.. kinda like a phone book...  the key is more surface area on the fabric, literally minimizing the interstices  which are THE WEAK POINTS cause there is nothing there... and in multiple layers allowing controlled slippage (friction) between the layers as the bullet penetrates .. it becomes one big catchers mitt.... and you are spot on with the weight v. flex v. heat comparison....
Daeglan, shopping for vests.. I literally would check out who DuPont, Teijin and some of the other BIG fiber producers are touting for Vests.. (use Google).  Sure they are going to tout the ones that use their material but the supply chain is as tight as a tick.. and controlled by the fiber makers .... they make all the decisions... and they are truly the EXPERTS on this, some of them are great friends of mine so I know them well..then see what those vest producers have to offer... then look at what the major LE Organizations and military and military contractors are doing.. then make a decision.  I personally do not trust the advertisements of the vest guys and their retailers... look behind them.. And the price is not going to be cheap.... in this instance you really get what you pay for.. All this is a lot of work.. but look what is at stake!!
Excellent questions, ALL!!  I love this stuff.
En Fin

[Daeglan]

What are the current developments in the spider silk field Doc? Are they making any progress in that arena?

[b-7]

I'm wearing a new safariland vest that meets the nij standards at work right now and it's heavier thicker and less flexible than my old one( which is also a safariland )  i can still move and operate well . So if it's supposed to be better then by all means I'll wear it. If I ever go shots fired( knock on wood) I want all the advantages I can have.

Also thanks doc for working so hard to develop better balistic materials that keep law enforcement and military personel safe people like you save lives every day

God bless

[BikerRN]

Doc,

I couldn't help but notice your reference to smaller manufacturers.

With the new standards, and the current administration's practice, if reports are true, of being able to "blacklist" any small manufacturer they want from ever securing a government contract without telling them the reasons why, I fear that we are looking at the end of small business having federal government contracts.

This is just another long range tactic in dooming the small businesses that made America great.

Biker

[Devereaux]

Biker -

You can't control small business - only BIG business. ?Wonder why this administration is inimical to small business.

[BikerRN]

Biker -

You can't control small business - only BIG business. ?Wonder why this administration is inimical to small business.

It has to do with CONTROL.

This administration wants all the control and power, in my opinion.

Biker