Secret Service agent shoots self accidentally

[badcatbigbat]

http://www.vcstar.com/news/2011/feb/04/accidental-shooting-at-camarillo-range-secret/?partner=yahoo_feeds

[Uninformed Opinion]

Did he used to work fot Tony Blair?

[beretta8000D]

One of the benefits of a hammer fired gun vs. a striker fired gun is that you can put your thumb over the rear of the slide when re-holstering and generally prevent this sort of thing by retarding the hammer's movement. Mas talks about it in his MAG40 class.  Holstering issues seem to be one of the most common actions leading to ADs and NDs. 

[NS2]

There is no such thing as an Accidental Discharge (AD).  If there were, it would presume that a firearm can be loaded and then discharge without human interaction.  If a human loads a weapon and then discharges it in a manner which is not safe, that is negligence.

This agent broke the cardinal rule of firearm safety.  The weapon will not discharge if your finger is not on the trigger.

This agent broke rule number 2 as well.  He pointed the weapon at himself while re-holstering.  It is possible to re-holster without flagging yourself if you train it properly.

Putting your thumb on the rear of the slide is a sound practice as an added safety procedure; it also helps keep the weapon in battery when tight holsters are used.  It is not a replacement for keeping your finger off the trigger and not pointing the weapon at yourself.

This a rare mistake for the USSS in general, but a costly one for the agent.

[Devereaux]

?So what would you call a discharge that is IN a safe direction but wasn't expected.

[NS2]

Safe direction is not the only parameter.

It must be discharged with conscious intent and in a manner which is safe.

If you are talking about an "unconscious break," then that would still be done with the intent to discharge the weapon.  

If you say that it went off and you did not intend for it to do so, even if it were in a safe direction, then that is a ND.

This agent likely did not intend to discharge his sidearm while it was pointed at his body.

[beretta8000D]

I didn't intend to start a dispute over semantics (notice I used both AD and ND). I suppose if you want to be really picky about it, a discharge could be coded as both AD and ND.  One of the Merriam Webster definitions for "accidental" is: "happening without intent or through carelessness and often with unfortunate results."

Something cannot be both unconscious and intentional.  Intention requires conscious awareness, at least in a legal sense.

Some guns have discharged without a finger on the trigger.  The holster could have been poorly made or damaged, resulting in a portion making its way into the trigger guard. Or, a piece of clothing could have snagged the trigger.  There could have been a malfunction in the firearm itself. There are numerous possibilities.  In all likelihood this was poor technique, but you cannot make an unqualified statement that a "weapon will not discharge if your finger is not on the trigger."  It is true as a general rule, but it is not an absolute.

I think we can all agree this guy did not intend to discharge his firearm while it was pointed as his body!

[NS2]

but you cannot make an unqualified statement that a "weapon will not discharge if your finger is not on the trigger."  It is true as a general rule, but it is not an absolute.

Actually I can and do!  In the over 40 years that I have been shooting, the over 20 years that I have been teaching people to shoot and the hundreds of thousands of rounds I have fired, I have never seen a firearm jump up and load itself.

There is nothing accidental about loading a firearm.  There is nothing accidental about some fool putting his finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be there.  There is nothing accidental about employing a bad technique.  There is nothing accidental about wearing clothing that you can not manage correctly when holstering your weapon.  There is nothing accidental about the foolish man which buys poor quality or ill-fitting gear.  Those all require human interaction with the weapon and/or gear and clothing.  It also means that the human didn't bother to check his gear properly.

Ammunition is not acquired by accident.  Ammunition is not loaded into the magazine or cylinder by accident.  Ammunition is not chambered by accident.  A finger is not placed on the trigger by accident.

No firearm, modern, relic or otherwise fires without being loaded by a human.  At that point, it is the human's responsibility to handle it properly.  If the firearm discharges and injures or kills a human, it is because it was pointed in an unsafe direction.  Modern, unaltered and properly cared for firearms do not discharge without being loaded first and they do not discharge without pressing the trigger.

The key factor in all this is the HUMAN BEING that acquired the firearm, acquired the ammunition, loaded the weapon and then through their own negligence does something monumentally stupid.    

Webster certainly defined the individual word, "accidental," correctly.  Unfortunately it is a compounding of the words "accidental," and "discharge," that give this point meaning.  

If a person wants to believe that a modern firearm discharges without human interaction then they likely should not own firearms until they receive proper training.

There is nothing accidental about not showing the proper respect for a firearm.

[Devereaux]

I would agree with your comment that if a human discharges a weapon in an unsafe manner that is negligence. But I disagree with your comment that to discharge a weapon you must have your finger on the trigger.

Case in point. I was standing as RO during a practice of our Bullseye team. Sgt Livermore loaded his 1911, a weapon that had been set up by Quantico, with a freshly charged magazine. I just happen to be watching him as he did it. He then extended his arm, and, without having his finger in the trigger guard thumbed the slide release to complete loading his weapon. It discharged. It was called "follow on" and in those days (70's) it was not unknown to have a target weapon do that. This was the only actual example of it that I personally saw, but I happen to be watching Livermore throughout the process (to his relief!). Back in those days, full contact sears were not yet a well known and developed concept, so most target guns had a knife edge sear. The hammer hooks were also short - even today that is true, but I cannot speak to exactly how short they were. The knife edge sear was known to bounce off the hammer hooks once in a while, and you got a discharge. The technique that Quantico had us follow after talking about that was to pull and hold the trigger while the weapon was still locked open, then hold the hammer back with our free hand thumb while dropping the slide. Then we would release the trigger while listening for the disconnector click, and remove our finger from the trigger guard, then ease the hammer down onto the sear.

[NS2]

Dev,

Modern, unaltered and properly cared for firearms do not discharge without being loaded first and they do not discharge without pressing the trigger.

Modern.  An unaltered modern weapon.  Such as the one used by a USSS agent.

An early 70's  Bullseye 1911 is not a modern unaltered firearm.  Back before the age of extra power FP springs and lightweight FPs, a poorly cared for or altered (match tuned) 1911 could do all sorts of silly things.  "tuning" a 1911 to the point of being unsafe is negligent behavior.  Not properly caring for any firearm is negligent behavior.  Nothing accidental about it.  As you said, it was quite common to experience follow-on in those days with those guns.  This means that they knowingly used unsafe weapons.  Another demonstration of negligent behavior.

However, proper respect was shown for the weapon and it was pointed in a safe direction so the tragedy that could have occurred with the weapon altered by human hand and was loaded by human hand was averted. 

[Hk940]

On several different Occasions I have seen weapons discharge without direct human contact on the trigger.  Most were poorly tuned triggers.  One bolt action rifle would discharge if the bolt was closed too forcefully. A shotgun could be made to fire if it was brought in from the cold to a warm room and not unloaded. Both were trigger issues. The last one seems to be much more common and deals with the dangers of open bolt machine-guns. Those damn things are dangerous. I have had them fail to catch the bolt and fire off one round or sometimes the whole mag when they didn't lock back properly. 99% of the time it's human error but rarely it's a faulty weapon.

[NS2]

So I think I need to clarify.

While do believe that there's no such thing as an AD, I took a ridiculous stance to yank the chain of a friend.

If I offended anyone other than Dev, then I apologize.  Now Dev   Well that's a completely different topic.  Perhaps I was being pedantic? 

[Devereaux]

My shipment from Palm has arrived. I have donned my asbestos suit. Fire at will.

[Chris]

The one thing I have not heard mentioned in this particular crapfest was... WHAT GUN WAS HE CARRYING?
I think that is germaine. I have seen people attempt to holster a Glock or M&P with their finger inside the trigger guard. When I was the RO/Instructor I have yelled STOP!!!. If STOP is not yelled a ND can happen. What we have here is a SS agent shooting himself in the butt while holstering a weapon on a range. Gee... when is the last time that has happened to a LEO?  SS agents (especially those that do Executive Protection) are normally pretty sharp on guns & gun handling. So, what was the gun, and what actually happened? Scott (NS2) hit on a number of logical reasons... but what was the gun? ( and I sure hope it was loaded with  FMJ instead of JHP at the time of the ND) Maybe we can learn something from that.
Chris Christian

[NS2]

P229-357

My brother-in-law is a USSS-PD Agent and got the story from a friend who said he was there.  I never asked about what type of projectile was in the chamber.

I'll see if I can find out.

You are absolutely right Chris!  Lots to learn from this one.

[Panhead Bill]

All arguing about semantics aside, the valuable lesson here is that no matter how well trained you may be, you can never be too careful - if you break any of the safety rules, you may shoot yourself or someone else. Always be overly cautious when handling firearms!

Bill

[HRCNICK11]

Is it possible for the holster to hit the trigger when re-holstering a fire arm and if so how is this avoided.

I have noticed a lot of holsters kind of clamp down on the front of the trigger gaurd putting some material in the trigger area.  to me it seems odd to have the material indented in the tigger area.  I'm just wondering if its ever been a problem.

[Devereaux]

First use that I recollect was in IPSC. There they created a seriously minimalist holster, which held the muzzle and kind of the back of the gun. Most importantly, it clicked onto the front of the trigger guard with a lock that would NOT allow you to pull the weapon FORWARD, but only minimal UPWARD pull pulled the gun free. Part of the trigger covered the trigger guard.

At the time, it appeared to be a singularly secure holster - for what it did. It would not be useful as a CCW holster, nor would it be reasonable for a LEO to carry, mostly because of its skelatized form. I believe today you see modifications of this concept, with much more coverage, in things like the Blackhawk series of holsters. As far as I know, this form of trigger guard lock has never been an issue.

As for the holster triggering the weapon, the place that I have seen this has been guns with a trigger shoe. Usually it is wider than the trigger guard, so not protecting the trigger from outside influence.

[HRCNICK11]

What I'm talking about can be seen in this holster and many others.  For the record I don't know who even makes this holster and don't care I have seen it on lots of them and this is just a example.




Look at the trigger gaurd area see how it indents a little, does this cause a problem, I have seen it on leather and plastic holster and it just looks like a bad idea to me.  I know its more than likely the way they are retaining it and it seems that every one is using it. 

[Mullannix930]

I saw a guy that claimed to be an expert competition shooter, shoot himself in the leg while reholstering. I guess when it is to cold for a competition, it's not to cold to shoot, even if you can't feel your fingers.

That they shot themselves is tragic, but the questions of how are what need to be looked at.