RANT

[BikerRN]

Howdy all,

This rant of mine may offend some of you, but I think it needs to be said, so here goes.

The decrease in acceptable accuracy is sickening. If you look at qualification targets today they most often resemble shotgun patterns and not what should be considered accuracy under pressure. While it is a given that most people will have a degradation in their accuracy when involved in a real life encounter, I think to accept such on the range does a disservice to the shooter and society.

If you look at the gunfighters of the past, many were striving for supreme accuracy, and even competed or practiced for such. Thus when they were involved in a real life encounter they were still able to often put the bullets where they needed to go. It's not so important that you hit your target, be it human or game animal, but that you hit something vital, as Mas says. I have seen law enforcement qualifications where anything on the target is considered "acceptable". To me that is disgusting. Is that someone that I want near me when the chips are down?

Granted, qualification is not training, and the two need to be separated. If one is shooting fast and on the move, I would expect the groups to open up. The thing is though, shooting on the move is a more advanced skill, much akin to running an Olympic Track Event. You don't do that before you can walk. Many shooters are in what I consider the crawling stage, and need to move up to walking unsupported, much like a baby begins by crawling, then walking, and finally for those select few babies, running in the Olympics.

I would encourage everybody to spend some time trying to put all their shots in one hole at various ranges and not be happy until they do. The side benefit of that is improved accuracy and ability to focus. It takes a lot of concentration to shoot well at distance and I'm of the opinion that the ability to do so will improve your close range shooting.

Today we have all these "Tacticool" trainers that are trying to reinvent the wheel. Instead of reinventing the wheel why not incorporate more of the basics?

Biker

[Gandalf]

In my time in the military, shooting at a torso/head target at 100 yards with open sights from an AR, any hit on the paper was scored.  I don't think they realistically wanted to wash anyone out of training because they were a poor shot.  Thus, no bullseye targets or scoring based on a 10 point system.  But this was the chair force, where the vast majority of the people didn't pick up a firearm during the course of their workday.  They took typing more seriously.  I was (in some ways) lucky while I did my 20 years that I was exposed to some of the more interesting aspects of military life.  I help train EST in hand to hand combat, got to work with EOD blowing up stuff, and played with stinger missile systems.  As part of the security police I got to shoot M-16s and M-60s full auto and even got to fire the M203 grenade launcher occasionally, even if it was just marker rounds.  I also qualified expert with the M-16, .38 revolver and M9 (qualifying expert in the AF is easy).  But a career like that in the air force is exceptionally rare.  I also grew up around guns so that part of the training and work I did I loved, but I'd say the majority of people serving didn't even like guns.

[Devereaux]

You haven't lived until you've been lying on a firing line with 50 M60's going at once. You lie on your side and feed the belt in one gun while the guy to your left is shooting and the empties are bouncing off your back and helmet - and hopefully not going down your neck. AND, of course, no ear protection. Gets noisey. Or getting to shoot a 105 recoilless. "Push for Power" was the acronym, if I remember correctly.

Accuracy and speed are opposing forces in any shooting venue. Getting to shoot "fast" is a skill that takes time - a fair amount of it - and a lot of rounds. You generally find that the faster you go, the worse you get, and at some point you need to slow down enough to actually HIT something and work from that. Round count is important here, as well as pressing yourself to improve how well you shoot. You can destroy a lot of ammo with no plan or purpose and it ends up being simply destroyed ammo. On the other hand, you can not push yourself and never get faster.

I am not sure there is a magic answer to moving in the direction of what Biker mentions. It is mostly a conscious effort to actually SEE what you are doing as you do it, and to be able to critique what you did. It helps to have someone who knows what he is doing to watch you and suggest, but in the end, it will be you pressing the trigger.

[jmstevens2]

Ahh I loved being a 60 gunner! Thousands and thousands of rounds and I didn't have to pay for one!

[NS2]

M60???

Old guys with Old toys!   


Sheesh!

[Devereaux]

You young whipper-snappers just don't have no respect for us old guys.

And like I said, you haven't lived until you've been on line with 50 of them babies - about 4' apart.

[NS2]

You young whipper-snappers just don't have no respect for us old guys.

And like I said, you haven't lived until you've been on line with 50 of them babies - about 4' apart.

You haven't lived until you find out if your reserve chute works.   

[Devereaux]

As an old fighter pilot once said, "Only two things fall out of the sky - bird sh*t and idiots."

[jmstevens2]

My Drill Sergeant told me the same thing. And I figured from the Combat Master Jump Wings on his chest, he knew of what he spoke.

Old? Just because Jimmy Carter was President when I was in Basic, don't mean that I am.... that old. I'll put an M 60 up against a SAW any day. Reach, lethality, oh sh*t factor..... The M2 is older than anyone here, since they still use it I don't see any kids crying about IT.

[NS2]

My Drill Sergeant told me the same thing. And I figured from the Combat Master Jump Wings on his chest, he knew of what he spoke.

Old? Just because Jimmy Carter was President when I was in Basic, don't mean that I am.... that old. I'll put an M 60 up against a SAW any day. Reach, lethality, oh sh*t factor..... The M2 is older than anyone here, since they still use it I don't see any kids crying about IT.

I'll do this in "old guy" speak.

M249 is BAD.  MK48 is GOOD.

[NS2]

As an old fighter pilot once said, "Only two things fall out of the sky - bird sh*t and idiots."

Yes.  The OLD adage of the pilots who would rather ride the cockpit into the ground because it is more familiar than the safety of punching out.


NEW techniques put the team in the right spot at the right time and with the right gear.  The OLD techniques just keep you guys circling over-head hoping for the cloud cover to clear. 

[Devereaux]

As an old fighter pilot once said, "Only two things fall out of the sky - bird sh*t and idiots."

Yes.  The OLD adage of the pilots who would rather ride the cockpit into the ground because it is more familiar than the safety of punching out.


NEW techniques put the team in the right spot at the right time and with the right gear.  The OLD techniques just keep you guys circling over-head hoping for the cloud cover to clear. 

Oh, oh. Looks like I stepped on NS2's comedy bone. He laughs funny!

[BikerRN]

 

This is quite an enjoyable thread drift, and I may win an award for creating a thread that drifted furthest from it's main topic in the shortest amount of time.

Of course I couldn't have done it without the support of all the other posters. I'd like to thank my Momma and Daddy for procreating and havin' me. The forum sponsers, Mark and Eric, and anyone and everyone that reads this thread. God Bless you all but most of all, send your money. 

Biker

(Typed during the Academy Awards)

[stickhauler]

You young whipper-snappers just don't have no respect for us old guys.

And like I said, you haven't lived until you've been on line with 50 of them babies - about 4' apart.

You haven't lived until you find out if your reserve chute works.   

Amen brother! But the jump master always made us feel at ease with his final comment: "Don't worry guys, if that one doesn't work, just bring it back and we'll give you another one just like it."

[TravisLeibold]

Spot On Biker!
This is right up there with:
"If i need ______ then I am in more trouble than I should be."
"I practice this way, but in a fight I will just do (insert complex task here)"
"I can't shoot my tiny carry gun well beyond a certain arbitrary distance, but whatever that distance is, it is sufficient"

Anybody else have some other good ones that the hear/read all the time?

[NS2]

This is quite an enjoyable thread drift, and I may win an award for creating a thread that drifted furthest from it's main topic in the shortest amount of time.

Of course I couldn't have done it without the support of all the other posters. I'd like to thank my Momma and Daddy for procreating and havin' me. The forum sponsers, Mark and Eric, and anyone and everyone that reads this thread. God Bless you all but most of all, send your money. 

Biker

(Typed during the Academy Awards)

I agree Biker.  Thread drift accuracy has drastically..............SQUIRREL!!!


 

[BikerRN]

ROFL 

Oh look, shiney lights........................................

[NS2]

Spot On Biker!
This is right up there with:
"If i need ______ then I am in more trouble than I should be."
"I practice this way, but in a fight I will just do (insert complex task here)"
"I can't shoot my tiny carry gun well beyond a certain arbitrary distance, but whatever that distance is, it is sufficient"

Anybody else have some other good ones that the hear/read all the time?

My favorite. "I don't carry reloads for my (insert name of 5 shot revolver here) because if I need more than 5 shots I'm in more trouble than a handgun will handle."


Maybe this should be a separate thread?

[BikerRN]

Spot On Biker!
This is right up there with:
"If i need ______ then I am in more trouble than I should be."
"I practice this way, but in a fight I will just do (insert complex task here)"
"I can't shoot my tiny carry gun well beyond a certain arbitrary distance, but whatever that distance is, it is sufficient"

Anybody else have some other good ones that the hear/read all the time?

My favorite. "I don't carry reloads for my (insert name of 5 shot revolver here) because if I need more than 5 shots I'm in more trouble than a handgun will handle."


Maybe this should be a separate thread?

I can vividly remember an evening with three possibles and me drawing my 5 shot J-frame and thinking, "This may not be enough, even with a reload."

What one does in training they will do when the pressure is on. Therefore I contend that one needs to put the bullets where they need to go in training if they want to stand any chance at all of putting them where they need to go when it's for real.

Biker

[Charlie Foxtrot]

.
Fifty M60s to one 5 shot revolver.  That's some thread drift.