Episode 119 - Roundtable Discussion

[Charlie Foxtrot]

Have you seen the "A380B" photoshop?  It has six wing mounted engines, and 3 on the tail like an MD-11.

O'tay, I'm going to have to call you on that one.  I worked the 'leven (and the 10, 80, 90, and 95) for Mickey-Ds.  Last time I looked, she only had one burner on the tail.  

No such thing as too much wingnut geekery!

[SirBrass]

Sounds like a couple of airline mechanics talking!  

*cough* I'm an avionics systems engineer, buddy; not a stinkin' wrench jockey

As far as ammo goes, my point is that the risk of airplane damage is not a huge serious risk unless we're talking about maybe rifle calibers.  So frang ammo isn't going to negate the bigger risk which is collateral human damage.  I say let the ammo the CCWer carries be left up to them except for incendiary ammo (yes, I have seen incendiary ammo in pistol calibers before).  What needs to be thought about is how can we mitigate the risk of shooting OTHER passengers when there's a legitimate threat to life and limb by an attacker and one must shoot or die.

Here's something else.  That plane is NOT public property.  It belongs to a private corporation and is therefore private property.  If that airline wishes to forbid firearms from being carried, then let them forbid them.  Their property, their rules.  If one then carries anyway and is made, then charge them with illegal trespass.  Basic property rights right there.  Of course I'd advocate an airline NOT forbidding the carry of firearms by certified (CCW-holding) persons, but I think first we need to get straight exactly WHO has the right to set rules.

I did just think of an idea.  IIRC, the Israeli military has their troops carry their pistols in condition zero (hammer down, empty chamber, safety on), yet they're still pretty wicked fast on drawing and shooting.  So, with practice, it's a valid carry condition for CCWers (isn't my preferred method, but I'll admit that it's valid if circumstances warrant it).  So, why not just simply require that any CCW-holder who is carrying on the plane carry with an empty chamber?  That'll prevent NDs if the gun is accidentally dropped, or if someone is wearing a worn-out leather holster and the leather get jammed into the trigger guard.  I'd say those conditions would be the most serious risk to other passengers.

Maybe a FAA-issued CCW (I cringe while typing this, because that'd just give MORE power to the federal government than it ought to have, but I can't brainstorm a better idea right now) where a valid CCW holder shoots a course of fire designed with ALOT of no-shoots, reasonable but stressful time requirement, and draw from deep concealment in condition zero to PROVE that one is capable of mitigating his own risk to surrounding passengers.  It'd be good for a few years before having to go and requalify.  Must already have a valid CCW (either residential or non-residential).  It'd only be a qualifier to prove competency inside a cramped environment.

[SteveZ]

I think the biggest concern with AIs (Armed Individuals) on a plane is if they miss...where's the bullet going to go?  The next time you're on a plane...take a look at someone..then look to either side of them and what do you see?  Probably another "someone". 

How many of us in competition have missed a target under stress?  I can tell you that I have. I've seen people miss targets that are 3 feet in front of them (and they wonder how they missed it).  Bob, Rick and myself had an offline discussion about AI's on planes and after doing a little "web research" I found that not just any LE can carry.  They have to complete something called "Law Enforcement Officers Flying Armed" by the TSA (see link below regarding the restrictions/regulations).  The scary part of this is that many competitors....IPDA or IPSC are better shooters than a majority of the LE's who don't actively practice.

http://law.justia.com/cfr/title49/49-9.1.3.5.10.3.10.14.html

[SirBrass]

Steve, yes that risk is large, but by the same logic, so would defending yourself and others anywhere where there's a large crowd of people.

I simply can't accept that reason alone for continuing to allow our 2A rights to be restricted by the Feds on air transport.  True, it is an actual, controllable area, but what about when embarkation/disembarkation ?

Perhaps include a few gun lockers which only can be opened when the the plane is at the gate, and each firearm owner is given the only key to unlock his/her handgun from within it.  So, you'd be allowed a carry-on, personal item and one handgun per passenger.  All other firearms must be checked. :-)

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[hobartfloyt]

I had a questions about the RSO training. Is there a minimum ranking you would suggest in IDPA/IPSIC before you take the class? Also, how much experience as an RO/SO would you recommend before you volunteer to work a sanctioned match? I can imagine that someone ranked Expert or Master might not appreciate having a Novice or Marksman as their SO in an important match.
Art - Florida

[RickB]

I got my USPSA/NROI Range Officer certification as a C class shooter with only a year of competition experience.  I was soon Vice President of my club, in charge of match production, so probably was a little more savvy than some shooters with a year of shooting under their belt.  I worked my first major match as a RO in 2006, then as a CRO at an area championship in 2007.  By that time I was an A shooter who had worked and shot a few hundred matches, so wasn't too intimidated when the super squad came through.  There are some excellent shooters who are not as familiar with the rules as experienced shooters who are not as highly classified, but that shouldn't affect any of the parties when it comes to the correct calls being enforced.  I got into a rules discussion on the official IDPA forum with some guys who may be Masters, and may be Novices, but one of them wondered if I'd ever shot the game before?  I'm a SO Instructor, and have worked a dozen sanctioned matches as SO and/or MD, and think I probably have as much practical experience in applying the rules as most people.  The guys on the forum apparently couldn't sense my level of authority when we were all just pounding keys.    The practical shooting sports need fresh blood to stay in business, so if you have the desire, take the SO or RO class.  The sport is built mostly on the labor of C and B shooters, not the exploits of the champions, so don't be intimidated by fame.

[Bob Mayne]

You know, Rick, your last sentence says a lot.  I've never been intimidated by fame.  I've always thought that just because someone is well known for something, it usually means they are really good at that one particular skill.  But not necessarily real good at anything else.  They put their pants on one leg at a time, just like me and they probably experience some of the same daily challenges as I do.  So you're exactly right, the shooting sports is dependant on new blood.  I love it when someone says to me they are shooting a match for the first time, or they are attending a defensive pistol skills class for the first time.  The shame of it all is that I often see someone come to a match for the first time, and I never see them again.  I often wonder, why not?  So I hope that everyone starts somewhere and stick with it.  It's quite rewarding and you never know when you may have an influence on someone else and your efforts motivate them to get involved because of you.