.45 ACP Loads

[Devereaux]

It being almost a ubiquitous round, I am sure everyone has a "favorite" load. I tend to reload something called a "black bullet". It is from Precision Bullets in Texas and is a lead bullet that has been coated. So it isn't quite a jacketed round, but it apparently holds together better than plated rounds. Still, when I look up loads, I use LRN for a bullet.

In checking the books, I note that there seems to be a wide variation in OAL. If you look up TiteGroup max loads, it reads 4.8gr for a 230gr bullet. BUT the OAL is only 1.200. That's a long way from the max 1.275. Now I know you don't have to have the max OAL, but I am just surprised at the short OAL for this load.

Now, my sense is that if I set the bullet out to, say 1.230 I would get a softer shot, less velocity, and maybe less pressure (something I really don't much care about other than not exceeding the max for a .45 ACP - not running a comp).

?So anyone have insight into this whole thing about OAL, pressures, powders, etc. I understand there are different burn rates for different powders, and that controls a lot of what max powder weight is, but I am a little at a loss about OAL differences.

[Jim Fleming]

RE: OAL variance... A couple of factors come into play here, Dev... #1 factor is, reliability, aka feeding issues..., #2 factor is, fitting the round into the magazine. then as an aside note:

More volume to start with, does seem to make sense that your pressures would initially be lower... I'm darn sure no expert, I don't even own a chronograph, yet... So I can't really comment, intelligently...

I do disagree with you in your introductory comment... .45 ACP isn't almost ubiquitous, it    IS    ubiquitous... 

[Devereaux]

I was just trying to give a little space to the likes of Eric, who probably would take umbrage over such a sentiment, not mentioning his beloved 9mm.

[SteveZ]

When loading 45ACP,  my favorite load was 4.2 gr of Hogdon Clays and a 200gr Black Bullet loaded to 1.255" it is extremely soft in recoil. And if you want something even softer, 4.0 gr of Clays and a 230 gr Black Bullet is my favorite load.

[Jim Fleming]

To be honest, you probably have noticed I do not go into the other Podcast forums very much... I have nothing against those forums, not at all. I just don't have time to read and write in all of them... Besides that, when I get into political discussions I usually get into trouble, or I lose the argument, (personal problem, I know)

However as you very likely DO KNOW, I read and write in here, a lot... I literally haunt this Reloading Radio forum... I have yet, to ever see a single post by Eric Shelton in here... I might be wrong, and I'll edit this post and retract my statement, if either one of two (2) things happen... #1 If I see a link to a post in here by said, Mr. Shelton. Or #2 he were to put an unsolicited post in here... I know he's not avoiding here, (Reloading Radio) it's just that he DOESN'T do Reloading.

[melski]

When loading 45ACP,  my favorite load was 4.2 gr of Hogdon Clays and a 200gr Black Bullet loaded to 1.255" it is extremely soft in recoil. And if you want something even softer, 4.0 gr of Clays and a 230 gr Black Bullet is my favorite load.

Would this work for standard lead round nose as opposed to the black bullet?

[Jim Fleming]

Dev, exactly what sort of profile do your "black bullets" have...? SWC or RN or HP?

[Devereaux]

Jim - 230gr RN

Steve - ?How did you come up with the OAL. ?Did you test various lengths in your weapon to find what it liked best, or shot best, or was there another method. I looked at my references and they list your loads at 1.225 - still longer than the 1.200 that they list for max load, but less than max length. ?What would happen if you seated to a longer length. Technically a .45 should take up to 1.275 without issue.

On an associated note, ?any problems with the Black Bullet. I have been shooting it in my .45 Colt loads, with 6.1gr of TiteGroup, and it's fun to shoot (and all the cowboys think I'm crazy to be shooting max load .45 Colt loads. But it's what OLD cowboys would have been shooting.)

Melski - my sense is that the Black Bullet shoots somewhere between a FMJ and lead. My sense is that FMJ slides a bit better down the barrel, so you don't get quite the resistance. Lead would be a bit harsher slide. Since the listing for 200 gr appears to be 4.3gr, I would would be willing to shoot Steve's load with lead RN's.

[SteveZ]

Would this work for standard lead round nose as opposed to the black bullet?

I'm sure it would.  I used to shoot 200gr LSWC with this load (however the OAL was a bit different)...the results are nearly the same....maybe a .1gr more powder as the moly/poly/black bullets seem to be a little faster than a standard lead lubed bullet.

[SteveZ]

Steve - ?How did you come up with the OAL. ?Did you test various lengths in your weapon to find what it liked best, or shot best, or was there another method. I looked at my references and they list your loads at 1.225 - still longer than the 1.200 that they list for max load, but less than max length. ?What would happen if you seated to a longer length. Technically a .45 should take up to 1.275 without issue.

Nothing magical or scientific on the bullet length...just a bunch of different tests to see what worked in all of my 1911's.  1.255 seem to be a length that everything liked.  Your absolute OAL is going to be restricted by your magazine...if its too long to fit in the mag...it won't matter what the gun thinks of it.

[Devereaux]

Was hanging out with a couple shooters last evening and we got to talking about this OAL thing. We promptly pulled out a Hogdon manual, and found the listings for the kind of loads that I propose to be about 1.260 as max length. The overall impression was that 1.200 was way too short, especially for a powder like TiteGroup that burns fairly fast. Sense was that you would overpressure the round.

Side note: velocity is not necessarily related to pressure. ie. the larger the pressure, NOT necessarily the faster the bullet. So a slower burning powder in a long barrel can give you a higher velocity despite never peaking to quite the same pressure as a fast burner. It's related to volume of burn/pressure. Hadn't really thought about that before.

[cornmastah]

where do you guys purchase these "black bullets?"

[Jim Fleming]

I second Corn Mastah's question, but also I have a question of my own... What are these black bullets coated with...? Some kind of moly coating?

J.

where do you guys purchase these "black bullets?"

[Charlie Foxtrot]

   
I shoot Bear Creek Bullets out of my SW1911.  They're finished in a slippery, gray/ black, hard Molybdenum, or Moly coating.  Our SASS Wild Bunch loads aren't exactly full house, but I've seen no evidence of leading, and the barrel does seem a bit cleaner.   

Bear Creek uses an interesting hollow-based design in their 185 and 200 gr 45s.  My pard reports that the accuracy is appreciably better, perhaps because the hollow-based skirt expands into the rifling and seals better.   

[Devereaux]

I get mine from a firm in TX, called Precision Bullets.

http://www.precisionbullets.com/

The bullets are swaged. The coating is proprietary, but they use to have a video of bullet performance. Stuff seems to hang together quite well. They state you can shoot their bullets >2000 fps, which would be quite fast for ANY handgun. I have been using them for .45 ACP for some time. I tend to use them from time to time in my cowboy .45 Colt cartridges, which are pretty much full house rounds (6.1 gr TiteGroup on 250 gr lead). I have had great luck with them. Am about to order my 3rd order with them.

[cornmastah]

Thanks for the info dev... those bullets sound pretty interesting and might help me save some money for plinking rounds.  I like how the price includes shipping.  Too bad they won't work in my HK45, might just use em in my 1911's and Sig.  I noticed on the FAQs though, that they mention that titegroup is a "not recommended" powder.  Any ideas why?

[SteveZ]

They think that TG is too hot of a powder with a moly bullet which could cause the coating to burn causing excessive amounts of smoke. With moly bullets, I've used either TG in 40 or Clays in 45acp without any issues. A shooting buddy and I did back to back tests comparing his Vit N320 against my TG and the Vit was less smoky but it also costs twice as much. The smoke doesn't cause problems unless your shooting directly into the sun early in the morning.

[Devereaux]

Been shooting mine in my USP and have not had any trouble with them either. At 20' they group really well. It goes without saying that in the 1911's they are great.