168 Hours of Rimfire - Appleseed Liberty Training Rifle

[Charlie Foxtrot]

Jerome;

You'd think so, but...  I don't think the sling tension is all that great, maybe 3 - 5 pounds, if that. Against that force are the barrel and stock held together by the band: a pretty stout system. Plus, your hand will also be right at the attach point, largely counteracting the pull.  I also deliberately slung the sling from the bottom of the barrel band instead of from the side, thereby imparting a twisting motion as well as a side motion, in the faint quasi-engineering hope that the forces and resistances would largely cancel each other out.  Plus, Appleseed puts great emphasis on the use of the sling in just about every instance. So, if there was a bias, it'd be remove when sighting in the rifle, using the sling.

However, I'm going to put most of my faith in the Appleseed Pros. The barrel band is a feature of the most popular Appleseed rifle: the 10/22 Carbine. And the Pros aren't worried.  

I suppose if Chuck Norris slung-up a 10/22, he might be shooting several miles to the left. But, he'd probably just round-kick the targets anyway.  

Anyone actually know?  Mudcat?  BTW, MC: I was in the Appleseed Radio chatroom, and your reputation as a boltman precedes you.  

Jerome, give me a shout when you're about to do your Appleseed. I've made all the mistakes, so you don't have to.  

[Mudcat]

My thoughts on the barrel band as a sling mount is that it really doesn't matter. I run a very tight sling tighter than most probably because I shoot my M1 more than anything else and it helps me to have a tight sling. So I practice the same with my .22s. I heard about this at a shoot once when an older shooter told me he had to remove his band before he ever shot Rifleman the first time. I didn't comment or disagree simply because I did not know for sure. But this shooter actually thought it helped him so I just smiled and acted surprised. Then the next time I had my rifles at the range I screwed a stud into the stock and removed and even made sure the stock was free floated by passing a business card between the barrel and stock all the way to the action. My other was an identically set up 10/22 with the sling stud on the barrel band. I shot several squares and I could not tell the difference between the 2 while shooting. I could not detect and flex or give in the stock. When I went down to the target line to check my targets I could not tell which one I had shot with either rifle they both shot in the 2moa range with all holes touching in each perspective group, except for 2 called fliers that were my fault. 50 shots at 4moa targets and there was no difference. So I thought I would try to loosen the slings up considerably and try again. I got the same results. So my totally nonscientific study did not prove to me that there was a noticeable difference where the front sling is attached at. But if someone swears that it does to them and they truly believe that it does, then who am I to argue. I hope that helps a little.
Guys don't get hung up on the gear, it doesn't matter what you bring you will improve if you listen to the instruction and put the practices into use. I cannot tell you how many times I have had a guy with a tricked out rifle on the line that was not applying the lesson and not shooting well and right down the line or even right next to him is his wife shooting a nicely set up rifle out shooting them. It is not the rifle but the nut behind the butt that makes the difference. As a good friend of mine says "you cannot buy skill in a bubble pack on isle #9".

CF So those guys were taking about me, I knew my ears were burning for some reason. I hope it was good. lol  I committed myself to shooting a bolt gun the last few months so I could better instruct a bolt gun shooter.

[Charlie Foxtrot]

   
No worries: you had 'em awed.  "He shot a 240(?)! -- With a bolt! -- And made it look eeeeeeasy!"

You like the CZ 452?  I fear there's a CZ 455 American Combo that is whispering my name.   

You're right about the gear.  However... my first 'seed I fought my equipment and my stupidity.  And I can do something about my equipment....   

[Ken Kowalski]

   
No worries: you had 'em awed.  "He shot a 240(?)! -- With a bolt! -- And made it look eeeeeeasy!"

You like the CZ 452?  I fear there's a CZ 455 American Combo that is whispering my name.   

You're right about the gear.  However... my first 'seed I fought my equipment and my stupidity.  And I can do something about my equipment....   

I'm pretty keen on the CZ 452 as well.

[Mudcat]

I picked up a Savage FVSB. It shoots well. I am looking for a left hand bolt action now.

Just get down on the floor and dry fire about 15 minutes every night. Get to know your rifle and get familiar with the positions. Practice shifting your NPOA from one spot on the wall to another. Make sure the rifle is unloaded and there is no ammo in the room.


Sent from my evil black iPhone using Tapatalk

[Charlie Foxtrot]

Took the Liberty Training Rifle to the range:

• It shot very well!  Light, crisp trigger. No malfs, no hint of failure. Resets were crisp and apparent, hammer strikes sufficient. The many types of rounds all popped. I encountered none of the problems the intraweb naysayer predicted.
• I wasn't quite doing my job, but focusing on what I previously learned in an Appleseed helped.
• Natural Point Of Aim NPOA) isn't natural - it takes practice.
• I need to practice.
• Shooting is getting very popular. My range has become "impacted". It's one of just a few indoor ranges in LA County. Only one hour allowed on the line during the weekend. Lots of new shooters, many of them getting instruction, both formal and informal. Lots of women, lots of "youts". Lots of new toys. I was one of the few with rimfires. Most everyone else was shooting large caliber handguns. A Judge can do impressive things to a sheet of paper a 3 yards: it's still dumb. The woman next to me in a wheelchair looked grimly determined shooting her GP100 and 9mm auto -- well.

[Mudcat]

Actually NPOA is very natural. It just takes practice to learn how to move that NPOA where you want it to be. lol.

Glad your rifle worked well. What were the naysayers saying nay about?

[Charlie Foxtrot]

  
The naysayers were actually asking for bits of shrubbery, a nice little picket fence, and a path, all the while saying "Nee" at night.  (Sound of exploding Monty Python fanboi heads.)

I let Bing take me down a dark alley one night: web reviews of the Vorquartsen 10/22 products. One goober proudly festooned his 10/22 with a tacticool stock, bayonet, laser, light, and single point sling, but put back in the original trigger group because of misfires and weak hammer strikes. Thank the maker that he was equipping for the Zombie holocaust and not Appleseed. Several other webbies said the same thing.  

Ken Kowalski had a similar problem, but he reasoned it out, and fixed the spring placement. However, I did watch for those issue in my test - and happily found none of them. (Un)fortunately, the gun didn't go full-auto, as was predicted by another gunstore expert. Instead it has a light, crisp trigger pull, with no overtravel and a nice reset.  I'm very pleased.

Now for the Appleseed.  It's looking like Azusa mid-March. Before that - practice!        

[Ken Kowalski]

Are we talking about my 22 AR conversion issues?
I think on that I solved my issue by chopping off a coil or two of the recoil spring and getting a better extractor.

I can't wait to hear your AAR of the Appleseed CF!

[Charlie Foxtrot]

  
Jerome;

Plans are afoot for an Appleseed class in Azusa, CA (605 and 210 Freeways) June 23-24. Come on up, I'll buy you an adult painkiller.

Offer's open to any GRRNer who shows up.   

Have you heard of the Rifleman Opportunity Card?  It's a special offer that lets you shoot for free for a year or until you get your Rifleman Patch. You'll need to buy a $20 Appleseed membership with an Appleseed class. Most people take 2 or 3 classes to achieve Rifleman - so it's likely a pretty good deal.  

[Devereaux]

?You guys mind going back to the barrel band issue.

I was talking to Clint Fowler, who built some of the early serious M1's and M14's - and managed to win the ?Nathan Award (high civilian shooter at Camp Perry) 4 times, a record I believe. He said in our conversation that you need to free-float the barrel from the band as the sling is attached to the band, if you want a consistent gun.

?You guys think something different.

[Charlie Foxtrot]

   
Hmm, might be a bit difficult as the barrel band is designed to clamp the barrel to the stock. 

However, I could add a sling swivel attach point to the bottom of the stock forend, remove the barrel band, an free-float the barrel...

Let me think about this.  Mudcat? 

[Mudcat]

Appleseed is not dependent on equipment. Sure the barrel band may make a very small improvement can't say for sure. But it is not necessary to score a Riflemans score even for a novice shooter. It is the skills that will get you there not the equipment.
I did a shoot in Evansville, IN. This past weekend and we had a guy who was left handed and was trying to shoot a right handed bolt action rifle. Which on the bench at home it was ok but in position and with time limits it was not working. I switched him to shooting right handed with the bolt action rifle. He said he shot pistol right hand so it was not an entirely new concept for him. But he made Rifleman by the end of the weekend. He is an awesome shooter no matter what rifle you put him on or which side now. The foundational skills work follow them and you will have no problems, I promise.

Do what you want with your barrel band but if you do not do your part it will make no difference. Remember we are only shooting 4moa.

I will be running shoots May 19-20 in Nashville, IN. and June 22-23 in Evansville, IN. Anyone want to come? I will pay for your fees and give you a loaner rifle to use, what the heck ammo too. This is available to 2 GRRN members just let me know.