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Author Topic: What to consider when buying a self defense handgun.  (Read 278 times)
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Bob Mayne
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« on: February 04, 2012, 01:50:18 AM »

On another forum I recently saw this topic and it's probably one of the most discussed topics on forums, podcasts, blogs and by gun writers.  I've also been asked this question hundreds of times.  So here's my criteria.  Remember, I'm looking at this from a practical every day guy, civilian CCW perspective, not as an operator.  But I really believe a persons CCW gun choice have ALL of these.

1. Must be ultra reliable and go bang when you really need it to.
2. Must be easy for the owner to work on and obtain spare parts quickly.
3. Must be easy to learn to shoot and user friendly to operate.
4. Must be able to take a lot of abuse and still fire reliably.
5. Must be able to withstand the lack of regular maintanence and still fire reliably.
6. Must have enough accuracy to hit the center of mass of a human torso at approximately 15 yards. (which applies to every gun made these days.)
7. Must be affordable to buy and obtain extra magazines and obtain spare parts.
8. Must be extremely easy to bring into action with a minimal amount of training. No fumbling with safeties, decockers, grip safeties, etc., which keep it extremely simple under stress.
9. Must be able to last tens of thousands of rounds without having to replace expensive parts on the gun such as frames, slides, barrels and extractors.
10. Must be able to maintain extreme reliability no matter what caliber it's chambered for.
11. Must have countless accessories, sights, lights, extended control buttons and other parts available to be used for customization without costing a lot of money or requiring an expensive gunsmith to install.
12. Must have the ability to be taken to almost any gunsmith in the world and be worked on easily, with the likelihood of parts being in stock or at least easy to get.
13. Must be easy for new shooters to learn to shoot.
14. Must be light enough for all day, everyday carry with quality holsters and belts.
15. Must hold most of it's original value if the owner wants to sell it.
16. Must be easy to sell quickly, because it's in high demand (if the owner wants to sell or trade it.
17. Must have been tested endlessly by military and law enforcement units worldwide.
18. Must be able to withstand the rigors of a 2-4 day training class and eat many hundreds of rounds without major malfunctions.
19. Must run reliably NO MATTER WHAT SIZE it comes in (competition, service model, compact or subcompact.)
20. Finally, it must be affordable enough for the average citizen to be able to afford more than one!

So....based on this criteria, what would you choose to carry?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 01:53:08 AM by Bob Mayne » Logged

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« on: February 04, 2012, 01:50:18 AM »

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Greg Harris IN-Rifleman
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2012, 07:06:14 AM »

Reads like a Glock ad to me.
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2012, 07:06:14 AM »

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Scott Currie
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2012, 08:22:00 AM »

Reads like a Glock ad to me.

+1
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Dave.45
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 10:17:40 AM »

1911. There are things the heart knows that the mind does not.

But seriously, the Glock is great. M&Ps are great. Mid size revolvers are also great. Be careful constructing lists that say: only my kind of gun is the "right" kind of gun. It may force a newbie into buying something that they don't really like, and as a result don't practice with, carry, or use.
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 10:17:40 AM »

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Bob Mayne
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2012, 11:34:22 AM »

It's just a list I put together primarily based on experience. I've owned a lot of different brands of guns, lost a lot of money I shouldn't have on guns I didn't shoot. Believe me, I was one of those "newbies" at one time that purchased guns because someone else said they were the gun to get. Then I didn't shoot them and they became very expensive safe queens.

It's not a Glock ad because M&P's, XD's and other polymer framed guns would meet nearly all of the above criteria. I've tried to put together a common sense list. Someone asked me to do a podcast on the "total ownership cost" of owning a gun. So I put together this list to help people analyze everything instead of  "it looks cool and my friends have one so I think I will buy that gun too." It happens too often.
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Why do I carry a gun?  Because I can't carry a Cop!

HandgunWorld Podcast
Suarez International Staff Instructor
NRA Pistol Instructor
Texas CHL Instructor

Upcoming Courses:
"Close Range Gunfighting" May 18-19th, 2013 San Antonio, TX
Bob Mayne, Instructor
http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/may18-2013-close-range-gunfighting-sanantonio-tx.aspx

"Beyond Concealed Carry"
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2012, 02:44:23 PM »

Great list.

FWIW...Please add: must fit the shooter's hand correctly.
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Bob Mayne
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2012, 04:40:21 PM »

Scott, good point and I don't mind adding that but from what I've seen over the past several years is that people can learn to shoot just about any gun. It seems to be more of a training issue rather than a hardware issue. For example, a 1911 seems to be comfortable in anyone's hand including mine, but it doesn't meet other criteria which are more important to me.

You've been training people for many years though, so please define what a correct fit is.
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Why do I carry a gun?  Because I can't carry a Cop!

HandgunWorld Podcast
Suarez International Staff Instructor
NRA Pistol Instructor
Texas CHL Instructor

Upcoming Courses:
"Close Range Gunfighting" May 18-19th, 2013 San Antonio, TX
Bob Mayne, Instructor
http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/may18-2013-close-range-gunfighting-sanantonio-tx.aspx

"Beyond Concealed Carry"
http://www.handgunworld.com/beyond-concealed-carry-course/
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Greg Harris IN-Rifleman
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2012, 07:06:06 PM »

I believe the points where a M&P and an XD are left out of are. At least these have been my experiences from owning all 3.


2. Must be easy for the owner to work on and obtain spare parts quickly.
Both have little parts availability other than returning to the factory. Every gun shop that I know of carries several Glock parts if you happen to need them.

12. Must have the ability to be taken to almost any gunsmith in the world and be worked on easily, with the likelihood of parts being in stock or at least easy to get.
I change my own sights and when I had an XD I could not find a single gun shop that would replace the sights on my XDs without sending the slide off.
Again parts are harder to get and you are mostly tied to ordering from the factory, with few exceptions.

I don't put any faith in the gun that fits. For the most part yes there are some exceptions really big grips and really small hands and vice versa. But I know I can shoot most any gun and have. I shot a IDPA match today with an M&P and could really tell very little difference other than the trigger from my Glock. My son shot a 1911 and a G34 both and had little trouble going from one to another. Put the sights on the target and squeeze the trigger you do this most any gun and you will shoot it decent. I believe there are many great guns out there and most of us seem to gravitate towards one or the other thinking it is the best. I wouldn't knock any of the 3 mentioned guns at all and would feel perfectly comfortable depending on any in a self defense situation. I would take any to a match and shoot or even shoot one for a season just to see if it grew on me. They are all awesome and better than a 1911, Wink  lol just kidding. 


« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 07:35:11 PM by Mudcat » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2012, 12:52:45 PM »

Scott, good point and I don't mind adding that but from what I've seen over the past several years is that people can learn to shoot just about any gun. It seems to be more of a training issue rather than a hardware issue. For example, a 1911 seems to be comfortable in anyone's hand including mine, but it doesn't meet other criteria which are more important to me.

You've been training people for many years though, so please define what a correct fit is.

When taken in the context of this, or any other gun forum, the need for a perfect fit is arguable.  When put forth to the general public with less enthusiasm and experience it can be paramount to their success.

The mechanics of shooting are going to be different for every shooter because every shooter will be shaped somewhat differently.  Fit to the hand is important.  That fit is generally defined by asking the shooter to let their strong hand hang naturally at their side and then having them make a loose horseshoe shape using their thumb and fore-finger.  This is horseshoe shaped slot is where the gun should fit.  Generally it will  create a base form which to begin.  Once the pistol is placed in the hand while at a natural hang to the side, the student can then take a natural grip of the pistol.  Bringing it up to a natural point and the gun should point well because it is aligned with the radius and the ulna.  It should feel natural and the shooter may even want to point with a slight interior cant of the hand.  At this point is where fit becomes more difficult.

The shooter may not be able to reach the trigger or other controls of the pistol using this natural grip.   Because of this certain accommodations must be made.  Those come in the form of a different gun, adjustable back-straps, grip panel changes and trigger length adjustments.  These points of adjustability must be adapted, along with type of gun chosen, until the shooter can find the adapted fit that is closest to their natural point fit.  Sometimes there is no need to adapt at all.

Some adaptations are more difficult than others.  Hand size, finger length, palm length, overall girth and width of the hand are the primary considerations, but shooter strength and ability to follow simple instructions are just as important.  While I agree that nearly any healthy person, when using proper technique, can operate a handgun, there are many out there that feel they can't.  So it is important to understand that it's not what I think, it's what they think.  I can demonstrate and teach the proper techniques for cycling the action on a handgun, but if the student doesn't believe they can do it, alternatives must be found until they gain the necessary confidence to do otherwise.  

In this case, we stretch the term "fit" by including the operator's ability to satisfactorily perform the basic manual of arms for their chosen (or chosen for them) pistol.  For example, a woman comes to class with her husband and he, with the advice of the gun store experts, bought her a LC9.  Now that is normally a good gun, but is it a newbs gun?  It fits her hand and is small so she can carry it pretty easily.  This is where the ability to operate the weapon comes into the fit category.  The lady can't operate the slide easily and, with the help of her husband, is embarrassed.  She has a difficult time operating the gun because the 115gr ball barks a lot in the micro 9mm guns and the only other time she has fired it was when he husband decided she should use the SD ammunition he had on hand so she could get the "real feel" of the gun.   Ultimately, she has a gun that doesn't fit her properly and she is having a series of nothing but horrendous experiences with "her" handgun.  Nothing good can, or will come of this mess.  Fit is important.

Fit is so important that S&W, Glock, Springfield, HK, SIG and FN all offer some type of an adjustable grip and/or trigger system for their guns. The reason the HK P30 is so valued by knowledgeable end users is because it permits complete interchangeability of the back-strap and both side panels.  That is how important fit is to the smaller hands of the european users.  The 1911 fits because it is a single stack and most single stack guns fit better.  If you doubt this, grab ahold of a P239 next to a P229 and you will see what I mean.  

Fit matters to the high end users and the newbies alike.  What is posted on this site is reaching far beyond the average gun-person's realm.  People seeking information come on here and read a few comments and walk away with what they believe to be a correct answer.  A simple list, such as the one you have created is very helpful for them.  Because of this we, collectively, have an obligation to ensure what we say is not only accurate, but complete.  We reach beyond ourselves and we need to recognize that when we say things like
Quote
I don't put any faith in the gun that fits.
or
Quote
It seems to be more of a training issue rather than a hardware issue,
that they are not necessarily correct.  While either may or may not be true, they send a very broad message which lacks context or support.  They are rightfully stated opinions of those people who made them, but they are not necessarily based or supported in a breadth or depth of fact, data or empirical information.  

I have trained thousands of students in my days.  I have worked with everything from the super-ninja to the average Jane.  What I have learned in working with these people is that fit matters.  The ability of the operator to operate the controls of the gun properly, matters.  The time it takes to train a student falls off exponentially when they have a gun that fits them correctly.  Most important of all, the shooter holding a gun which fits them correctly is a more confident shooter and sometimes confidence is all they will need.

Thank you,
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 02:47:53 PM by NS2 » Logged

Scott

"what you don't know can kill you and what you DO know can kill you sooner"

...priceless quote from: Devereaux
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