Velocity of cast lead bullets / barrel leading

[Panhead Bill]

I finally got a chrono and was able to check my load I've been using. I'm loading a 230 grain cast lead RN bullet on top of 4.6 grains of titegroup, and shooting it from a 5" bbl 1911.

High velocity is 852 fps, lowest was 773, with avg of 814. It's a large spread, but I went through several systems of measuring the powder. For the hell of it I chrono'd factory rounds, and got a high of 834, low of 793, and avg of 820.

I am getting horrible leading my barrel though.

Am I on the right track?  Is there still some wiggle room to increase the velocity some?

Bill

[Jim Fleming]

Bill, two things I've learned...

#1 Bullet fit is critical. Your lead bullets should be around .001 oversize. If you slug your barrel and it (the slug) mikes out at 0.451" your bullet will seal the barrel better and give you less leading if you run them at about 0.452"

#2 are you using pure swaged lead? or Cast Boolits? If you're using pure swaged lead, (i.e. factory bullets) your velocity strikes me as being a smidgeon high. Not real bad, but just a tad on the hot side. I'm certainly not the gospel on this matter, but experience tells me to say this.

Let us know what you course you take.

Jim

[Panhead Bill]

Using cast boolits - I haven't mic'd them, I guess that wouldve been a good idea. I'll definitely do that later this afternoon. 

At the range today, everything I shot was consistently to the left. Not bad group sizes, but everything was to the left. Did it with both lead cast bullets and with factory jacketed rounds, until I shot 3-4 magazines of jacketed rounds, then my POI started shifting towards center. I don't think it was me, even when I slowed down a focused intently on fundamentals, it was still shooting left.

Could that be an effect of the leading, and shooting the jacketed rounds cleaned the bore out enough to correct it?  Just a thought

Bill

[Jim Fleming]

Bill, you're gonna think I'm being a smart alec... but forgive me if you do... I'm not...

I'd honestly say it was nothing more than your sights needed adjusting...

That's my first and honest thought, sir.

[Tennessee Jed]

I'm a newbie reloader, and am always anxious to learn more about avoiding the dreaded leading issue.  Bill, could you let us know if you measured the bullets?

Along these lines and avoiding barrel leading, I know size of a cast bullet is probably the biggest issue, and higher than normal velocity can also cause leading.

Is it ever possible that a powder that burns too quickly can also cause leading?  Not saying this is the issue for Bill, but I am curious if this is something to watch for with cast bullets.   

[Panhead Bill]

Jed, I haven't had a chance to measure the bullets yet - I'll post as soon as I do. As far as burn rate goes, my understanding is - and I hope somebody will correct me if I'm wrong - that the opposite of what you posted is correct; faster burning powder potentially results in less leading. Stated very simply, slower burning powder allows time for the lead bullet to begin to melt before being pushed out of the barrel. At least that's how I understand it.

Bill

[Magoo541]

I just shot a match with some .452 200g RNFP (Badman bullets with a 15 Brinnel) running around 950 fps.  These were the only thing I had loaded and with no bullets to make my normal major load (830 fps) I figured I'd give it a try afterall it shoots to POA at 25 yards (for 5 rounds anyway).   The first few stages I noticed nothing, but by the last (and furthest shots >25 yards) I noticed a significant decline in accuracy.  When I got home I found out why, it looked like a pigeon took a lead dump down my barrel.  I did notice that the leading was mostly from the 9 to 2 o'clock which follows the rifling as it takes a 60* rotation down the barrel in my XDM.

I could have used a Lewis Lead remover in between stages, but I didn't know they existed or have access to one at the time.  So I am going to make sure I have at least 500 bullets, not loaded, on hand from here on out just in case.

[Jim Fleming]

A bore snake in the correct caliber might've helped, also... they have bronze bristles...

[Magoo541]

I scrubbed with a bronze brush for 15 minutes to get it clean when I got home and I still see some "witness" material in there.  I need to get a bore snake for it too, just busy finishing school and chasing boys out of my yard-3 teenage daughters 

[Devereaux]

Let me restate what I've said before. Chore Boy pads, part of which you tear off and wind on a nylon brush, will take out just about any lead you can find. I have consistently found I can delead my SAA's, which have to shoot lead only as SASS won't allow anything else, in very little time. I first clean the soot/junk out, then scrub the barrel (dry) with the Chore Boy brush. Lead is gone.

You guys should try it. It's a LOT cheaper than a Lewis Lead Remover, and as far as I'm concerned, it works at least as well, and in my opinion, lots better than the LLR. I still have the original two pads that I bought, and have wound only about 1/3 of one pad onto my brush.

[Jim Fleming]

Dev, the bore snake fits very nicely into just about any range bag/kit... I agree with you that the Chore Boy trick works and works well... But carrying one of those out into the field...? Do you do it..?

[Rockhound]

Once you get all the lead cleaned out of your barrel, you may want to treat the bore of the barrel with a product called Pb-Blocker.  I talked about it in the thread titled "Ground Hawg Day."  You can use this in addition to the bore snake, bronze brush, or Chore-Boy.  I found that the bore accumulated less lead, and what little lead did accumulate, it was much easier to remove from the bore.

That doesn't mean you do not need to experiment with your reloads.  Like Jim said, make sure the cast bullets you are using in your reloads are 0.452" in diameter.  Also, be aware of how much crimp you are using.  Don't crimp it too much, or you will be essentially swaging the bullet.  Also, there has been some discussion about using the Lee Factory Crimp Die on reloads using cast bullet and the fact that they may be responsible for swaging the bullet.  I use a Lee Facory Crimp Die on my reloads where I am using jacketed bullets, but when it comes to cast bullets, I use a slight roll crimp - just enough to remove any flare on the mout of the case.

Good luck.

[Jim Fleming]

I'm about to record another podcast, on this exact subject! I've been driving Cast Boolits in rifle ammo over 2300+ fps! And it's been done in three different rifles! No leading! The bores are coming up as clean as the day they were made!

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[Panhead Bill]

Look forward to listening, Jim.

Bill

[Cowboy T]

I'm a caster, too, and though I haven't yet done a lot of rifle, I do plenty of handgun.

An accidental experiment taught me a year or so ago that soft lead is OK even at magnum handgun pressures and velocities.  I shoot a lot of 30,000 PSI loads in .357M and .45LC, and in addition to proper fit for the throats, I've learned another Very Important Factor:

Proper lube.

When I say "proper lube", I don't mean just having enough, though that is very important.  I also mean lube of the correct type for the application.  You know those hard crayon-wax blue lubes that you see in a lot of store-bought cast bullets?  That's way too hard to smear the barrel and lubricate the next bullet.  The result can be lead-fouling.  I find that the softer, the better; NRA 50/50 is great stuff for this, as is any of LsStuff's softer "White Label" lubes.  Also, liquid Alox/Xlox, when used in sufficient quantity to amber your cast boolits, does an excellent job as well.

Remember, this is for handgun.  For rifles, the optimal lube consistency might be different.

[Jim Fleming]

I just use Lee's Liquid Alox for all my cast bullets... In rifle bullets, I lube them once. Let it dry. Then I add the gas checks. Then lubricate them again, since the sizing die does in fact wipe the lubrication off of the driving bands.

[Tennessee Jed]

Quick question about lubing cast bullets.  I purchase cast bullets, and they come lubed.  If you purchase bullets in this manner, do you all think it's worth re-lubing them as described above?

[Jim Fleming]

As far as lubricating your bullets again, the only drawback I can see would be, it might makes things a bit more messy for you. As far as hurting anything, no not really. If you're talking about using Lee Liquid Alox.

If you're talking about running the bullets through a lubri-sizer again? What would be the point? Plus you'd run the risk of work-softening your bullets.

Jim

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[Tennessee Jed]

Thanks Jim.  I'm always on the lookout on how to reduce leading, thought maybe this would've been another method.   I look forward to your next podcast. 

[Jim Fleming]

Thanks, Jed.

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