Episode 171 - College concealed carry

[Bob Mayne]

A recent shooting at a college in California has sparked more controversy about whether students at universities should be able to carry concealed handguns for self defense. I think they should be allowed to. So this episode is based on an excellent article in Guns and Ammo magazine about the subject of concealed carry on campus. I will of course provide a link to that article on the GRRN forum. The first half of this episode is about listener voice mails on open carry, Kahr pistols, IDPA and Ben Branam’s international incident that almost happened.

Links:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/03/students-hid-as-gunman-opened-fire-small-christian-school-in-california-7-dead/?test=latestnews

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/03/29/8-reasons-for-concealed-carry-on-campus/

[PoliticsAndGuns]

Great coverage on this topic Bob! I would like to add this, at 18 years old the government trains tens of thousands of young people to use select fire rifles and much heavier weaponry when the join the military, or the Guard and Reserves, with the hope of getting help with their college expenses. And yet these same people cannot be trusted when they enter a classroom... Wait you mentioned that the military doesn't trust them on our soil either...

Well from my own experience as a truck driver who has trained other drivers for the past 9 years I can for a fact say that a 21 year old (1 to 2 years away from graduating with a standard 4 year degree) can be trained to drive an 80,000 lb tractor trailer loaded with ammunition, gasoline, fireworks, or any of a myriad of other hazardous materials that can cause FAR more damage than a single handgun. I and other drivers like me take these loads into and through the hearts of America's largest cities, where a "misuse" could be catastrophic.

The people who think that young people are not responsible enough to handle firearms ought to meet a few of those that I have trained to handle something far more deadly.

Thanks for your attention, getting off the soapbox. Have a great day everyone!

Paul

[Mexican_Hippie]

Hi Bob, I wanted to comment briefly on accidental "printing" and "flashing".  In the state of Texas accidental "printing" and "flashing" are NOT illegal. Here's a few discussions on the topic for everyone's reference (including legal notations).

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46162
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/texas-concealed-handgun-chl-sponsored-double-action-chl/23574-printing.html

On Open Carry, I agree with many that I wouldn't do it very often...but...I would vote for it simply because I don't believe government has the authority to regulate arms in the first place (i.e. - I think ALL current arms controls law are not Constitutional). 

[Bob Mayne]

Thanks for the clarification.  I stand corrected, then.  The statue says it's only a crime if I "intentionally" flash my gun.  I guess, if I was in a grocery store and someone saw my gun because my shirt rode up over it or something, they could claim I was intentionally flashing it, even if I wasn't. 

So the simple answer is...pass open carry.  Then it's not an issue.  That wouldn't prevent a citizen who doesn't know that open carry is legal (assuming it becomes legal) from freaking out and calling the police on me.  This happens a lot because people are generally ignorant when it comes to gun laws.  In many states where open carry has been legal a long time, there are still citizens who don't know it is. 

But your point is a good one and thanks for setting me straight!

[Mexican_Hippie]

I agree with you completely from a practical perspective.  I just wanted to make sure the folks in Texas knew from a strictly legal perspective.  I believe Florida just recently passed something on the subject, but can't remember the details.

Keep up the good work.

[oldjarhead]

Just wanted to chime in Bob on the concealed carry on campus issue. I was a cop on the University of Texas at Austin campus for 23 years. I am retired now. This campus is the one that Charles Whitman killed a lot of innocents from the UT Tower. A little spoken fact, that never is reported, is that after the first 45 minutes, Whitman had a free fire zone, with no opposition whatsoever. At the time in Texas(1966), it was not unusual for college students and local towns people to have rifles on a rack in their pickup truck's rear window. Some students even had them in their dorm rooms at the time. Well, after this 45 minute rampage began, towns people and students brought out their rifles and started firing at Whitman, causing him to take cover, and only shoot from some drainage rain holes on the observation deck. The Police only had revolvers and shotguns. I am sure pinning him down in this manner saved many lives. Of course that fact never seems to come out.

Also on September 28th, 2010, just a few months after I retired, a disturbed young man with a semi-automatic AK 47 and a full magazine, ran down 21st street near a church and the Main library, at UT Austin, firing a few shots at the church wall. This was mid morning on a weekday with classes in session. He passed dozens of students, and ran into the Main library, and went to the top floor and then shot himself to death at a study desk. He could have shot dozens in the library as the observation cameras tracked some of his movements. The Police response was excellent, with Officers in full gear into the library within five minutes. Of course we all know it does not take that long to shoot a a couple of dozen people. Fortunately this poor soul did not, and no one knows why he did what he did. I think he would have at least taken a great pause, if concealed carry was allowed on campus. He knew on campus, that no one except the Police would be armed. I agree any 21 year old student or any resident on or near a college campus should be allowed, if they have a CHL, to carry there. In my state, Texas, if they allow you a CHL, you are certified good guy/gal. So what difference does it make where you are standing. Your standing on a public sidewalk with you CHL and firearm, and you take one step onto a college campus, you all the sudden become this irresponsible idiot? Pleeeze! 

[Bob Mayne]

Just wanted to chime in Bob on the concealed carry on campus issue. I was a cop on the University of Texas at Austin campus for 23 years. I am retired now. This campus is the one that Charles Whitman killed a lot of innocents from the UT Tower. A little spoken fact, that never is reported, is that after the first 45 minutes, Whitman had a free fire zone, with no opposition whatsoever. At the time in Texas(1966), it was not unusual for college students and local towns people to have rifles on a rack in their pickup truck's rear window. Some students even had them in their dorm rooms at the time. Well, after this 45 minute rampage began, towns people and students brought out their rifles and started firing at Whitman, causing him to take cover, and only shoot from some drainage rain holes on the observation deck. The Police only had revolvers and shotguns. I am sure pinning him down in this manner saved many lives. Of course that fact never seems to come out.

Also on September 28th, 2010, just a few months after I retired, a disturbed young man with a semi-automatic AK 47 and a full magazine, ran down 21st street near a church and the Main library, at UT Austin, firing a few shots at the church wall. This was mid morning on a weekday with classes in session. He passed dozens of students, and ran into the Main library, and went to the top floor and then shot himself to death at a study desk. He could have shot dozens in the library as the observation cameras tracked some of his movements. The Police response was excellent, with Officers in full gear into the library within five minutes. Of course we all know it does not take that long to shoot a a couple of dozen people. Fortunately this poor soul did not, and no one knows why he did what he did. I think he would have at least taken a great pause, if concealed carry was allowed on campus. He knew on campus, that no one except the Police would be armed. I agree any 21 year old student or any resident on or near a college campus should be allowed, if they have a CHL, to carry there. In my state, Texas, if they allow you a CHL, you are certified good guy/gal. So what difference does it make where you are standing. Your standing on a public sidewalk with you CHL and firearm, and you take one step onto a college campus, you all the sudden become this irresponsible idiot? Pleeeze! 

I agree completely and this is the point I made on my podcast.  Thanks for telling us about your experiences. 

[YearZero]

I think concealed carry should be allowed everywhere. (I'm open to reasonable exceptions - like if you are going to get drunk, probably shouldn't have the gun on your hip but that is more to prevent someone from doing something stupid when they are inebriated)

It is needed most where it is currently not allowed, like college campuses. I live in the 'great' state of Illinois and work for one of the universities in the state. Leaving aside the fact that I couldn't have a firearm after the apartment complex I was living in was bought by the University (the regulations stated a request could be made to the chief of police. I did, got denied as they deny everyone and the regulation is just for show), people in gun free zones are easy targets. There have been a few mass emails lately (and this is not a new occurrence, several are usually sent each semester) that detail an armed robbery or assault that occurred on campus. This happens both in the Chicago area and downstate, so it is not limited to one area.

I thought gun free zones, especially college campuses, were safe. /end sarcasm.

At least the good news for me is that I have since moved and am able to have a firearm. I have put over 1000 rounds through my Glock 19 with a couple hundred being the carry ammo. I have also gotten CHLs for both Utah and Florida.

Keep up the great work on both podcasts. 

[Bob Mayne]

Open carry should be allowed everywhere too.

[sdprof]

Bob, you brought up a good point in the discussion of concealed carry on campus, that students are using many complex and dangerous items and materials, but the powers in charge think said students can't be trusted with a firearm. There's a great photo/poster exemplifying your point, I try to spread it around as much as possible. You can see it here. (I'm not sure if you want photos posted directly.)

Interesting thing about carrying firearms on campus is that in a large number of states it's not against the law. It's the school administrations in their policies that prohibit firearms. In some cases, the policies only pertain to the students, faculty and staff. A visitor is not prohibited, strictly speaking. Nice situation?

[Bob Mayne]

Cool picture.  It's OK to add pictures to posts.  I don't know how to do it with this type of picture or I would.  Can anyone tell what kind of gun that is? 

[SteveZ]

Looks like an H&K P7...aka Squeeze Cocker.