Slide Stop vs. Slide Release

[Sicktone]

Bob/All,

I figured I'd break this topic out from the Episode thread.  I really enjoyed the well thought out voicemail discussing Slide Stop vs. Slide Release.  I thought I would add my $.02.  

I used to use the slingshot release until I had some training from a local instructor.  He is a Marine (no such thing as "ex", right?), a local SWAT trainer and operator for many years before retiring from the force a few years ago.  His belief on the topic was that you should training to use the "Slide Release" method.  He had seen a few training injuries over the years with guys who swept their hands/arms in front of the barrel after running an overhand slide release.  I made the usual objections such as the "fine vs. gross motor skill" argument, parts wear, etc.  His take was that releasing the slide was no more "fine" a motor skill than pressing a trigger properly--just a matter of practice.  "Parts wear" is just a matter of maintenance (cheap if you're running a Glock).  He had me running a lot of reloads and I don't even have to look at the release.  It seems second nature to me.

I consider myself an eternal student, so I'm always interested in better ways of doing things.  I'm not dogmatic about this idea, but right now, running the "Slide Release" method makes the most sense at this time.  I'm interested in what others think--not an argument.  Thanks again for a great podcast and forum community!

[Mudcat]

I use the overhand method.
What does he recommend when you go to clear a malfunction? What does he recommend to do after the engagement and you top off after your scan?
I prefer to same slide manipulation for every need except for one handed drills of course.

I don't see how anyone can get their hand in front of the barrel after the slide is released your hand is going back your gun is going outward. Using an unfamiliar gun you may not know exactly where the slide release is as they are to the rear on some guns and toward the front on others. The overhand slide release works for all guns.

[SteveZ]

Regardless of what Glock calls it, I can say from personal experience that it doesn't work as well as a 1911's 'gizmo'. It's a PITA to try and drop the slide on a Glock with that thing. The first time I tried shooting IDPA with my G19, one of the other competitors in my squad who has been shooting IPSC since the Columbia Conference and is a LEO instructor advised me to use the slingshot method as that is what they instructed their Cadets to do as it was much more reliable...and that is what Ive been doing ever since. It definately isn't a slide release on a Glock!

[Bob Mayne]

Whatever works and works consistently every time.  As I've mentioned, I've trained differently because of screw ups I've made in using the slide stop to release the slide.  I'm willing to bet that the few injuries he's seen people cause because they swept themselves after the "slingshot" method, was a training issue.  Before making this post, I just took out my G19 and some snap caps and practiced the "slingshot" method and tried to figure out how a person would sweep their arm or hand doing that?  I can't figure it out.  Again, it sounds like a training problem.

Just because a few mess it up and hurt themselves, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. 

Again, it's your choice, whatever you can make work consistently, without fail. 

As Mudcat mentioned, what about malfunction clearing?  You can't use the slide stop to do that.  So why not train to run the slide, the same way every time whether you're clearing a malfunction or reloading?

[Jon Payne]

I use and teach the over-hand method.  The reason I train this way is I'm working one technique for loading and immediate action.  Using the same technique will clear all but the type 3 malfunction.

[CR Williams]

There's also a few guns out there that have a slide STOP, not a slide RELEASE. On those, one of which I used to carry, you'd have to bang on it with a hammer if you want it to release the slide. OTOH, even with models where the makers mandate use of the slide release, such as some Kahrs (maybe all, I don't know), you can still run a slide and get it working again if you want or need to. That's another aspect of the consistency idea behind running it and not releasing it.

[SteveZ]

I would also venture to guess that the gun manufactures may recommend the use of the slide release as opposed to sling shot for one reason....trying to avoid people "riding" the slide forward when they slingshot the slide.  When doing our IPSC101 classes...we'd always get a couple people who would chamber a round that way...insert the magazine...pull the slide back and slowly "push" the slide forward.  The gun companies probably get tired of people calling them up and saying "my gun jams when I try and chamber a round"...so the manufactures put the "use the slide stop/release to release the slide when chambering" into their manuals.

[Bob Mayne]

True, but once again, that's a training issue.  People need to train themselves NOT to ride the slide when they chamber a round.  It's not hard to learn to rack the slide the proper way.  I'm always amazed by the amount of people who really can't perform basic gun manipulations.  I wonder what will really happen if they had to use their gun in self defense?

Either way is acceptable.  If someone trains to use the slide stop lever, then they have inconsistency of training when clearing malfunctions and performing press checks and clearing the weapon.  You can't do any of those with the slide stop lever.

[SteveZ]

While that's true (its a training issue)...I believe that only a small fraction of the gun owning population out there actually seeks out external training...a majority of gun owners are "self trained".  The manufactures are just playing the odds...the lowest common denominator in this case is an untrained owner who doesn't have or never will seek out training and probably only knows what their parents taught them...or they read out of a owners manual....if they even bothered to read it....which probably excludes about 80% of the male population...because we all know...men don't read manuals! :-)

[Jon Payne]

True, but once again, that's a training issue.  People need to train themselves NOT to ride the slide when they chamber a round.  It's not hard to learn to rack the slide the proper way.  I'm always amazed by the amount of people who really can't perform basic gun manipulations.  I wonder what will really happen if they had to use their gun in self defense?

Either way is acceptable.  If someone trains to use the slide stop lever, then they have inconsistency of training when clearing malfunctions and performing press checks and clearing the weapon.  You can't do any of those with the slide stop lever.

My classes are just as much if not more so about gun handling skills than marksmanship.

[Bob Mayne]

While that's true (its a training issue)...I believe that only a small fraction of the gun owning population out there actually seeks out external training...a majority of gun owners are "self trained". 

You are correct, that's the unfortunate thing 

What's a manual?

[Mudcat]

We all know that tactics and training are always evolving and weapons have changed somewhat over the years too. The instructor in question is retired and at the time it may have been common practice to use the slide release. But as training has evolved I don't think it is a practice that is taught at most self defense schools. I know I have yet to see it taught at any of the training I have had, which is a decent cross section for my geographical area. As far as the military they teach what is the easiest to teach to the person who has zero experience.
So Sicktone I don't think your guy is wrong according to what he was taught but I don't think the same thing is being taught today for various reasons. The cop, Soldier or even a lot of CCW holders are much more efficient today than they were say 10 years ago.

[Bob Mayne]

True, there is seldom only one way to perform a gun manipulation.  Your mind is like a parachute, it works best when it's open.

[Sicktone]

Thanks for all the feedback.  Again, this is a great forum and its great to hear from folks that actually care about training and helping each other.

Mudcat, you're right.  My instructor has been retired for a few years.  He is a hardcore 1911 guy and actually tried to talk me into having a safety installed on my Glock.  Overall, I've learned some really good things.  After telling me to "never clear a house or building" he taught me how to clear a building.  He also showed me how bad it is, tactically, to do that alone.  His shooting fundamentals were pretty much textbook Cooper.

I've spoken with some LEO's currently serving in his old agency.  The guy is a bit of a legend--both for being a hard charger and stubborn.  I like the fact that he's been in a few "altercations" but seems most proud of the times no one got hurt.  I'm definitely better for the experience.

I have a few other classes (with other instructors) scheduled this year and look forward to learning more and building a better system.

[Machine]

I am not sure that I buy into the fine motor skill thing. When I do reloads, I am not hunting for the button. Through training my thumb is already in the right position and as soon as the magazine gets driven home, it is more of a grasp than a press. 

Let me ask you this: if you cannot manage the slide release, how can you manage a magazine release? They are both buttons and I will contend that the mag release is harder. A lot of people, including myself, need to do a slight rotation on the gun to reach the button.

[Bob Mayne]

How would you clear a malfunction with the slide stop lever?  Training to use the tap rack and bang method requires you to use the overhand tug. I suggest getting used to clambering a round that way so that it's consistent with your training. Consistency is important. Doing things the same way each time is the key.

[Machine]

How would you clear a malfunction with the slide stop lever?  Training to use the tap rack and bang method requires you to use the overhand tug. I suggest getting used to clambering a round that way so that it's consistent with your training. Consistency is important. Doing things the same way each time is the key.

How would you release the slide by tapping the magazine? I can see your point about more repetions on one movement, but I just don't think it is worth the extra time if you practice "consistently" with the slide release when you are at slide lock. When fractions of a second count, why do you want to spend those extra moments on a slingshot pull? Doesn't matter if it is a competition or a self-defense scenario.

I just don't see how this is special and getting different treatment than a manual safety on a 1911 or the magazine release on any gun. If you practice it, it should be automatic. If you find that you are not consistently getting it right, then maybe you should take a different approach. I never find myself looking for the slide release, just like I have no recollection of turning the gun in my hand when I press the mag release. I do know that I do it, though, because it took practice when I learned it.

Perhaps using the slide release lever should be relegated to those that practice frequently - I don't know. I just know that it is programmed motion for me and I can't see changing it unless there are significantly better reasons presented.

[Mudcat]

Machine, by all means if you like using the slide release go ahead and use it. No reason to change unless it improves anything for you. It did me so I switched.
When you have a malfunction a type 1 malfunction click and no bang in other words. The process to clear it is to tap upward on the magazine to ensure it is seated properly, pull the slide to the rear release and then fight. That is where the tap comes from.

I do the overhand tug method as it turns out it is faster and easier for me. I was a slide stop tripper for many years until I was shown I was consistently faster and less chance of a oh crap moment. I could take the slide stop off of my guns and never miss it now days. But it may not be the same for you or anyone else. It took me some training with an instructor watching and correcting me and lots of practice though it did not happen over night.

[Machine]

Thanks for the response, Mudcat.  I just don't get why these keep getting related. The only time I use the life release is on a slide lock reload. The magazine has already been dropped and another one driven in. That is not a malfunction.

For a malfunction, I do the tap, rack slingshot method. I think we all agree on that one.

[Bob Mayne]

Machine, by all means if you like using the slide release go ahead and use it. No reason to change unless it improves anything for you. It did me so I switched.
When you have a malfunction a type 1 malfunction click and no bang in other words. The process to clear it is to tap upward on the magazine to ensure it is seated properly, pull the slide to the rear release and then fight. That is where the tap comes from.

I do the overhand tug method as it turns out it is faster and easier for me. I was a slide stop tripper for many years until I was shown I was consistently faster and less chance of a oh crap moment. I could take the slide stop off of my guns and never miss it now days. But it may not be the same for you or anyone else. It took me some training with an instructor watching and correcting me and lots of practice though it did not happen over night.

Mudcat said it better than I did. Whatever works consistently is fine.  For me, on a Glock the slide lock lever is so small I don't like to take a chance on missing it so I slingshot the slide home. 

I've chosen to always use that method whether it's a reload or malfunction clearing. It's consistency of motion. That what I meant by relating the two manipulations.   I think consistency is important. Less to think about.