Episode 177 - Subcompacts

[Bob Mayne]

Subcompact guns are extremely popular for concealed carry. So this episode is about the advantages and disadvantages of small semi automatics, revolvers and other guns called subcompact guns. We analyzed Kahr PM9, Glock 26 and J frame revolvers and small .380 autos. Jon Payne also joins me for an interview about subcompact handguns. Thanks for downloading and listening. I will fill in some links later. Use this thread for comments or questions. http://www.handgunworld.com

Links:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_780153_-1_757781_757781_image

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp

http://www.ruger.com/products/lcr/index.html


Below is the podcast by Michael Bane that I referred to on "doctrines."

http://www.downrange.tv/blog/down-range-radio-262-the-concept-of-self-defense-doctrines/14162/
 

 

[tacmedic45]

I have to say I go with Jon on G26.  I seem to be able to conceal it better than the 19 and useing a timer and shooting with the two I can find no difference in shot to shot follow up and honestly I think I shoot the 26 a little better.  For a single stack I have been packing a Ruger LC9 for the last few months and once I got used to the trigger it is a likeable little pistol.  My experience with Kahr is strictly with studentss in some of my classes and they have been less then stellar in their performance.  With that said none of them had more than a 100 or so rounds through them.  For revolvers I am a bit partial to the Smith 442.  have had some others but none of them seemed to hold up or shoot as well as the smith.

[Bob Mayne]

If they haven't shot more than 100 rounds through their Kahr pistol, there's the problem.   Interesting point about the G26 and time and also that you shoot it better. I've heard other people say the same thing.

[Sicktone]

Another great episode, Bob.  I like the fact that you continually have guest on the show with varied perspectives.  I think its great that we have so many choices when it comes to (dependable) sub-compact pistols.

Listening to Jon's take on carrying a G17 as easily as a G19 is an interesting one.  It leads me to think that a discussion of body types and approaches to concealed carry might make for a good show.

[Bob Mayne]

You're right. That might be a good topic. Holsters and method of carry has a lot to do with it too.

[jeff4423]

Hey Jon, buy your j frame yet, skip it and get a k frame instead. model 10's for $300 model 64's $360 or an model 12 for around $400. You can hide a k anywhere you can hide a j! more pleasant to shoot too.

[Jon Payne]

Hey Jon, buy your j frame yet, skip it and get a k frame instead. model 10's for $300 model 64's $360 or an model 12 for around $400. You can hide a k anywhere you can hide a j! more pleasant to shoot too.

Jeff,
I have J Frames, K Frames, and N Frames.  I use them primarily for recreation these days. 

For those that did follow the podcast, I couldn't stand it anymore and went to the local gun shop where I took home a Kahr Black Diamond PM9.  I've put 300 rounds through it so far.  100 of those were 124gr Nato Ball and it hasn't missed a lick yet.

[Mudcat]

I carried a G19 for years and then picked up a G26 sub compact and while I did shoot it well and it was nice to carry. I realized I could conceal the G19 just as easily as I could the G26. Similar to Jon and the G19-G17, but concealing the G17 on my body was next to impossible, I am a smaller guy. I picked up a Kahr CM9 to take the place of the G26. I love this little gun so easy to conceal and it shoots very well. I almost have the required 1000 round trigger job on it and it as well as myself have gotten better. Surprisingly I have gotten used to the long double action trigger pull.
I considered a J frame and carried my wifes for a while but it didn't trip my trigger.

[watchman]

Bob, you seem to have soured on pocket carry.  Is that only related to size constraints of the guns you wish to carry or are there other reasons?

[Bob Mayne]

I haven't really soured on it. But began to realize the limitations. It's hard to draw, especially when sitting. Also a much smaller gun. I'm actually pocket carrying today as a backup in left front pocket.

[watchman]

I pocket carry because it is the most discreet form of carry for work.  I'm in retail and while there are no rules against it, I really can't afford to have my customers or coworkers getting uncomfortable with me.  I also can't get away with untucked shirts and baggy pants or cargos.  That mostly leaves pocket, shoulder, or crotch.

For my P3AT I think it is very fast for draw from the pocket, but I'd hesitate to pocket carry much bigger frame than that.  Too easy to get it stuck.

[Jon Payne]

Bob, you seem to have soured on pocket carry.  Is that only related to size constraints of the guns you wish to carry or are there other reasons?

watchman,
I still use pocket carry when I feel like it.  What I feel is important is everyone understand the negatives as well as the positives.  Pocket carry is a pro-active type carry.  If you see trouble brewing you can get your hand on the gun without raising eyebrows.  Pocket carry is also convenient and some people will carry in a pocket when they wouldn't use another option.  Negatives are that it's next to impossible to get to it if you're seated, on your back, or moving dynamically.  Folks on the net seem to lean toward the all or nothing crowd and things just aren't that simple.  If guys like Bob or I speak out about a deficiency in a product or type of carry it really has nothing to do with whether we like it or not.  In my case I want people that read my stuff or listen to what I say to make informed choices and decide what works for them.

[watchman]

Negatives are that it's next to impossible to get to it if you're seated, on your back, or moving dynamically.

For any larger framed gun I'd agree, but in practice I'm able to draw a p3at from the pocket much faster and reliably than from inside the waste w/tucked shirt, even sitting down or moving.

[Jon Payne]

Negatives are that it's next to impossible to get to it if you're seated, on your back, or moving dynamically.

For any larger framed gun I'd agree, but in practice I'm able to draw a p3at from the pocket much faster and reliably than from inside the waste w/tucked shirt, even sitting down or moving.

I'm doing a 0-5 Feet Pistol Gunfighting course in Orange TX June 9-10, 2012.  You can really put that statement to the test at our venue.  If you can make it, we'd be glad to have you.

[Bob Mayne]

The pocket .380's are easier than something like a PM9 for example.  J frames are also easier for most people to draw from a pocket.  But the fastest for nearly everyone is on the belt.  watchman, I'm like you at times, I'm in corporate business environments where tucked in shirts and sometimes a tie is necessary.  Then I pocket carry one of my .380's.  I've found the Concealment Solutions' mirco mamba holster, http://www.concealmentsolutions.com/sidewinder2.html, awesome and very discreet for strongside hip carry of small semi autos.  So far, I've found nothing better than a High Noon Hideaway holster (reviewed on my Youtube channel, http://www.youtube.com/handgunworldshow) for appendix carry of a small semi auto. 

It's your choice.  I would imagine in retail you stand a lot and pocket carry is a lot easier when standing.  But drawing while sitting is really difficult.

[watchman]

It's your choice.  I would imagine in retail you stand a lot and pocket carry is a lot easier when standing.  But drawing while sitting is really difficult.

Furniture retail is doubley tough because I have flexibility sensitivity too.  One minute I'm at a desk, the next I'm squatting and lifting a dresser.  

The will was there, but I simply wasn't going carry often enough in the wasteband.

But the biggest factor was total anonimity in my carry system.  Coworkers are sensitive as it is, but customers are rediculously so.  The baggy pants/untucked shirt thing I was doing was going to be a problem.  Heck my sales dropped 20% when I grew out a goatee a few years back.