Podcast about the movie theatre shooting

[Bob Mayne]

Many people are emailing me regarding the movie theatre shooting. Ben and I got together and recorded some thoughts. But it probably won't air until mid week or next weekend. But it will come out. 

[SirBrass]

I had some thoughts (You've read them), but I just found out about the armor the guy had on.  Scratch everything I'd said.  It's not just frightening, that's straight on NIGHTMARE.  Dude somehow had full juggernaut plate on (that's what I'd call it): chest and back plates, neck guard, helmet, groin plate, leg and armor plate, gas mask.  No idea what kind of plates, but a .45ACP sure as hell wouldn't do the job without needing to be wedged in between the cracks.

F'ing scary, man.

[Bob Mayne]

Scary yes, but even when hit with a bullet with body armor on, it will still sting you pretty good. Suppose a person was there concealing a high cap pistol and was able to put several rounds on him in short order. It may have saved a few lives by changing his mind about continuing. He was undeterred for 15 to 20 minutes. I think I could have deterred him.

[SirBrass]

I would have done so as well.  I'm not showing idiotic bravado when I say that I would rather die with brass around me resisting this guy than to cower and do nothing while people around me died while I had the means to try and stop him.

B/c if I died, I'd go with a clean conscience that I'd done my utmost.  I already know where I'm headed (and not for anything worthy I've done or said), but I've no idea about the other people.  Therefore better me stopping this guy than them being slaughtered like sheep while I sit there pissing my pants behind a seat.

Not to say I wouldn't be scared out of my mind.  I may know where I'm headed, but I still like LIVING.

[Kimerazor]

Fox & Friends Sunday reported that four boyfriends (2 former military) covered their girlfriends with their own bodies to protect them. 

If they were allowed to legally carry, I believe they would have put up a fight.


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[SirBrass]

Fox & Friends Sunday reported that four boyfriends (2 former military) covered their girlfriends with their own bodies to protect them. 

If they were allowed to legally carry, I believe they would have put up a fight.


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Agreed.  Salute to those 3 brave men, and my heart goes out to those young ladies who lost the loves of their lives.

[Goldenboy]

If his body armor is anything like what the N. Hollywood bank robbers had on, then I doubt my G19 would've done much to even slow him down.   Best case for carrying a Desert Eagle. 

[Bob Mayne]

You never know. A quick 6 round burst to the upper chest or thoracic area and the face, might slow him down!

[Southern Yankee]

Recent information says that he was not wearing armor, just a tactical vest. I dont care if he was wearing a military flack jacket with SAPI plates, a few well placed rounds would have gotten his attention. Even if they didnt hurt him, it would make him think. Most of these mass murderers are cowards anyway and lose the will to fight whan they face any opposition.

[Bob Mayne]

Recent information says that he was not wearing armor, just a tactical vest. I dont care if he was wearing a military flack jacket with SAPI plates, a few well placed rounds would have gotten his attention. Even if they didnt hurt him, it would make him think. Most of these mass murderers are cowards anyway and lose the will to fight whan they face any opposition.

That is true.

[PoliticsAndGuns]

I have been doing a lot of thinking on this over the past week or so, and came to somewhat of an epiphany. One thing that I have heard recently in several "tactical" discussions on several podcasts is that when a real person with a gun vs person with a gun fight happens one of the most frequently hit places on the body is the hand or arm.

Now absolutely theoretically and with a true novice perspective on tactics, if an active killer is shot in the hand or arm the likelihood that that person would have to switch shooting hands is very high, and shooting with the non-dominant hand seems to be FAR less effective unless someone has a lot of practice doing it. This would create at the very least a delay if not a total stoppage of the aggressor.

Where I am going with this is. Even if this piece of disease infested garbage was wearing full body armor and some magic helmet that moved bullets away from the face plate, There is nothing that I know of that is made to protect the hands ballistically (sp?) and still allow the finger to fit inside the trigger guard and manipulate the trigger.

To wrap this up, it all goes back to mindset and being prepared. If you have a firearm you are far more likely to make it out of a worst case scenario than if you aren't, and there is never a no win situation.

Paul

[SirBrass]

100% agreement there, Paul.

[nate]

Scary yes, but even when hit with a bullet with body armor on, it will still sting you pretty good. Suppose a person was there concealing a high cap pistol and was able to put several rounds on him in short order. It may have saved a few lives by changing his mind about continuing. He was undeterred for 15 to 20 minutes. I think I could have deterred him.

I was looking at the muzzle energy of common self defense calibers (9mm up to 10mm) earlier.  If you did hit him in a plate, that would theoretically transfer all energy of the round, unless it glanced off.  Muzzle energy of a 9mm is 350 foot-pounds (+p and +p+ would be greater), .45 ACP is around 400, .357 is 550, and 10mm is 650.  Getting hit repeatedly with that much force would throw a huge wrench into any active killers plan. Think about getting hit with a 5 pound hammer 3-5 times in 2 seconds.

[Tennessee Jed]

[/quote]

I was looking at the muzzle energy of common self defense calibers (9mm up to 10mm) earlier.  If you did hit him in a plate, that would theoretically transfer all energy of the round, unless it glanced off.  Muzzle energy of a 9mm is 350 foot-pounds (+p and +p+ would be greater), .45 ACP is around 400, .357 is 550, and 10mm is 650.  Getting hit repeatedly with that much force would throw a huge wrench into any active killers plan. Think about getting hit with a 5 pound hammer 3-5 times in 2 seconds.
[/quote]

I agree.  In this instance, I think there would be a reasonable expectation of success with a solid thumping by high muzzle energy rounds.  Reminds me of the podcast on ProArms about the 357 Sig, and how it makes divots in steel targets that no other round seems to duplicate.   

[SirBrass]

Corbon 185gr +P .45ACP is in the 543 fpe range, with .357sig being in the 574fpe range, not a mere 500.  That's energy at muzzle, mind you.  There's a pretty decent dropoff with all of them once they hit open air for a bit.  And I figure the bigger the bullet, the more it will slow from its initial muzzle velocity due to increased air resistance.

Still... there's a reason I just ordered 4 boxes of that corbon +P.  I like the idea of .357SIG/MAG muzzle energy out of my .45.  Gives me a good feeling, knowing I can whack a bad buy with .45 bullet weight but at a magnum velocity .

[Bob Mayne]

I have been doing a lot of thinking on this over the past week or so, and came to somewhat of an epiphany. One thing that I have heard recently in several "tactical" discussions on several podcasts is that when a real person with a gun vs person with a gun fight happens one of the most frequently hit places on the body is the hand or arm.

Now absolutely theoretically and with a true novice perspective on tactics, if an active killer is shot in the hand or arm the likelihood that that person would have to switch shooting hands is very high, and shooting with the non-dominant hand seems to be FAR less effective unless someone has a lot of practice doing it. This would create at the very least a delay if not a total stoppage of the aggressor.

Where I am going with this is. Even if this piece of disease infested garbage was wearing full body armor and some magic helmet that moved bullets away from the face plate, There is nothing that I know of that is made to protect the hands ballistically (sp?) and still allow the finger to fit inside the trigger guard and manipulate the trigger.

To wrap this up, it all goes back to mindset and being prepared. If you have a firearm you are far more likely to make it out of a worst case scenario than if you aren't, and there is never a no win situation.

Paul

Very true. But its probably not a good idea to shoot for the hands. They're hard to hit. I got shot in the hand a lot during the force on force portion of the 0-5 Ft Pistol Gunfighting course, because my opponent was shooting at me center of mass and hitting my hand. And it hurt even with an air soft gun!  And yes it would cause the active shooter, especially a not so good trained one to change course and be less effective.

[PoliticsAndGuns]

Good point Bob.

Again I am an absolute amateur and can only draw from scenarios that I see in my mind.  But most of the time at least one of this guys hands had to be near center of mass.

Thinking of firing both an AR and a shotgun, when I am starting to move the barrel towards the target my left hand is supporting the front of the weapon as it swings up, and my hand and forearm remains exposed supporting the gun while it is in firing position. This would put my left hand at about the level of my neck and my forearm around high chest level, both near the center of my body if someone were looking at me from a target's perspective.

Once a transition to handgun is made, both hands carry the gun straight in front of me, and so would be near the center of my body and either level with a head shot, or if I am not ready to fire a groin shot.

I guess what I was trying to say is that even with every possible part of the body covered with armor it is still possible to stop the shooter even if you don't get through that armor. And the simple act of firing puts your hands near the primary target zone.

Am I totally off base here?

I know I blabber a lot to get to the point, thanks for being patient with me.

Paul

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

[SirBrass]

Exactly what I'm thinking.  If you're shooting for center mass and the scumbucket's hands are out in front of him, there's a better chance you're going to hit those than if you were facing a squared up target with his hands at his sides or away from him.  And MAN I can just imagine the damage a bullet would do if it managed to smash long-ways down the arm, what with the required penetration depth.  Probably wound pattern alot like a split barrel after using a way-too-high pressure load in a rifle cartridge (like the story I heard yesterday about the guy who accidentally loaded 60gr of titegroup into one of his rifle cartridges instead of his rifle powder).

I don't care who you are, if you're hit like THAT and the bullet goes careening down your arm length-wise, even for a few inches... your fight is over for a LONG time with that hand, if not for good.

[Bob Mayne]

This is another reason you need to train extensively to shoot with both hands. Handgun or long gun. You need to be proficient with either hand. I'm working on that a lot right now. At Close Range Gunfighting last weekend, I had the squad that I was leading, doing a lot of ambidextrous shooting.

[Southern Yankee]

Buffalo Bore 9mm puts out 500 ft-lbs at the muzzle.