Being prepared and the knuckleheads who don't believe

[Bob Mayne]

You know, just a few months ago, some folks left this forum, quite vocally (on Facebook mostly) due to the fact that they thought this forum was overrun by tactical medicine directors, mall ninja's, etc.  (I mean, the GRRN forum.)

In the wake of the Colorado Movie Theater shooting, I wonder how many of you are thinking, hmmm....maybe I need to be a little more prepared when I go out?  Do you think some trauma medicine training, like treating gunshot wounds on yourself and others around you, might have paid off for some of the people in that theater?

Tacmedic's thread he just started on EDC (http://gunrightsradio.com/forums2/index.php/topic,8378.0.html) got me thinking.  (By the way, post your EDC carry on that thread please.)

You can go back and read some of the posts about episode 163 (http://gunrightsradio.com/forums2/index.php/topic,7774.msg60056.html#msg60056) and realize there are some that thought it wasn't real applicable to what every day citizens might encounter.  Really?  In the wake of what happened, I think we are facing threats that are far more sophisticated than we thought, well prepared and intent on doing much more damage than perhaps we thought?  I'd like to warn against short sighted thinking and urge you to get all the training you can. 

You never know when you might find yourself in a situation like those people in the theatre in Aurora, CO. 

[haskovez]

I don't think someone with the "tactical" medical training could have done much in this scenario.  If you somehow managed to avoid getting shot, the authorities were on the scene pretty quickly I think the professionals would have been in there before you really had a chance to do anything.  I think if you want to sell me on a scenario where the training might be useful it would be more along the lines that he was holding hostages and some of the hostages were shot and you were one of the uninjured that could help.  In that case no other people can get in, or the other scenario is you are hikely remotely and someone gets shot by a criminal in which case there is no close help by authorities.  I think in a suburban situation like this one that ends quickly, you are unlikely to be able to help.

[SirBrass]

I think of those 3 men who died protecting their girlfriends.  Those men were dead before it was even safe to come out from under the seats.

I'm going to have to get dispassionately analytical to keep thinking about this.  This hit way too close to home for me.  It hit at a kind of locale that I regularly frequent as a young man.

But though it may not have been as effective as we'd wish it to possibly have been this time around, I'm thinking very strongly about tactical medical training... and getting a red cross first aid certification again.  Because here, I find myself not just thinking "how do I fight this guy", but also, "How do I protect and take care of my loved ones."  That could have been ME in that theater if the bad guy had struck the Phoenix area and if things with a certain young lady begun sooner.  And having a gun is cold, ineffective comfort if the person you fought to protect has a serious wound and is bleeding out.


Off topic comment:  I can NOT wait until this scumbag gets the death penalty.  I don't care why he did it.  The fact is that someone who would of his own volition plan and commit such a crime deserves nothing less from society than a swift execution.

[tacmedic45]

I don't think "tactical" medicine is the key here.   It is haveing the training and knowing how to apply it.  I have graduated some of the most respected Tems classes in the U.S. and the main thing in any of the classes is they are trauma based.  Most first aid classes cover some trauma but not the nuts and bolts of care under fire.   And seconds do count look at the battlefield save rates today versus the vietnam era.  Knowing what to do in a major incident in the first couple of minutes, I feel is important for all of us as armed citizens to understand.  You are more likely to use a trauma kit than you are to use your handgun.

[Jon Payne]

How long does it take to lose consciousness due to blood loss?  How about death?  Will the pros find you in under 5 minutes?  Dr. John Meade's courses teach much more than just patching folks up.  He teaches how to fight before during and after.

[haskovez]

And I say again you are in the scenario and you survive the encounter and there are injured.  Authorities are on the scene.  You say I have taken tactical medicine can I help? Or alternatively instead you took an EMT class at your local community college, and are a certified EMT.  In that scenario you say I am an EMT do you guys need assistance.  Which case do you think is more likely that they are going to trust you to let you use the training.  I am not saying there isn't a place for trauma medicine, I just think there is more value in first learning basic First Aid / CPR.  Second get EMT training and then maybe look to something more exotic.  It is all about spending time preparing for the most likely outcome.  Most likely you will need to know some basic first aid.  Needing something more specialized like EMT skills is still highly probable.  Things go down all the time where you need an EMT.  As for Trauma medicine once you have mastered the basics there is probably a place for it, but most likely you will go through life and never need to use the skills so from a preparedness standpoint it makes the most sense to focus on what you will need the most first, and then specialize from there.

[Jon Payne]

Are you really reading what you are typing?  Have you ever been in an incident?  I have more than once.  Cops for the most part DO NOT perform first-aid on folks.  I'm one of the few that will depending on the environment/circumstances. EMT's drive the Ambulance and are allowed to do very little besides that.  Paramedics do most of the work/directing.  Emergency Medical folks will not enter a "hot scene".  How long does it take cops to secure the crime scene? You've made it obvious in the past you don't care for SI or what we offer.  You also don't care for Bob's involvement with SI and left that little note on iTunes ( I thought that was pretty cheap ).

And I say again you are in the scenario and you survive the encounter and there are injured.  Authorities are on the scene.  You say I have taken tactical medicine can I help? Or alternatively instead you took an EMT class at your local community college, and are a certified EMT.  In that scenario you say I am an EMT do you guys need assistance.  Which case do you think is more likely that they are going to trust you to let you use the training.  I am not saying there isn't a place for trauma medicine, I just think there is more value in first learning basic First Aid / CPR.  Second get EMT training and then maybe look to something more exotic.  It is all about spending time preparing for the most likely outcome.  Most likely you will need to know some basic first aid.  Needing something more specialized like EMT skills is still highly probable.  Things go down all the time where you need an EMT.  As for Trauma medicine once you have mastered the basics there is probably a place for it, but most likely you will go through life and never need to use the skills so from a preparedness standpoint it makes the most sense to focus on what you will need the most first, and then specialize from there.

[Jon Payne]

Point being, even if there is law enforcement present, how long will it take to get you or your loved one or even a third party the care they need (from medical folks) before making it to a hospital?  Consciousnesses can be lost in as little as 30 seconds from blood loss.  Death can occur in 5 minutes or less.  I know it's cliche' but when seconds count first responders are minutes away.  In real life incidents, time is measured in fractions of seconds and minutes seem like forever. A scenario that you've survived an active shooter incident and medical staff is already on scene before you could have taken steps to save lives is more unlikely than you ever being in the incident to begin with.

[Blackwing Shooter]

Tactical Medical training is good on many levels. I think that the thing we need to remember is that the reason we carry a gun is that we want to be self sufficient until the professionals get there to take over. Police, doctors, Fire and EMS can not be with all of us at every moment.

[Bob Mayne]

Self sufficiency means having as much knowledge as you can.  My main point in starting this thread is that we cannot have enough training.  I think the Colorado shooting is a huge wake up call.  I was listening to Tom Gresham's latest show.  He and Ted Nugent were talking about sharpening your knowledge and training skills for a scenario like this.

Who would have every thought a crazed gunman would enter a movie theater, protected with lots of body armor and start executing people at will? 

The fact that so many are sheep, is the real problem.  No one had the skills, mindset or tools to try to even slow that guy down.

Here's what I picture:  I'm with my wife and son, somewhere like this and the crap hits the fan.  One of them is shot.  But I also have to keep fighting off the bad guy and keep him and his friends away from me, my wife and son.  So I have my Glock 19 and a trauma kit with me.  Can I use them?  Do I know how to keep my wife and son alive (assuming one of them is shot) and also fight off the bad guy from shooting one of them again?

In the Colorado case, the bad guy was able to shoot people for something like 15 minutes before ANYONE intervened.  As far as we know, NO ONE in that theater had any first aid, EMT or tactical medicine training and put it to use quickly.  NO ONE had a gun on them either.  So it was mass hysteria with a bunch of innocent people trying to flee.  Do you think it's possible a well trained sheepdog could have slowed the scumbag down, prevented him from shooting as many as he did, and perhaps save a life with some of his tactical medicine training?

Not to think so, makes me wonder why?

[PoliticsAndGuns]

I became an EMT in South Dakota 20 years ago, since making a career in driving truck I have let my certification lapse as continuing education hours are nearly impossible to keep up with while on the road. I see Tactical Medical training VS EMT as somewhat like Glock VS XD VS 1911 Vs Sig. I carry a "jump pack" with me both in the truck and in my personal vehicle. I also carry a pair of medical gloves with me at all times.

I can say that I have never treated a GSW (gun shot wound) outside of the work I did with the rescue crew I volunteered with but have treated dozens of car crash victims, burn victims and other random injuries in my personal life over the 20 years since I took my training.

I would say that any medical training is better than no medical training, and would encourage everyone to get at least some basic first aid.

Paul 

[SirBrass]

Trauma is trauma, whether from a GSW, impact from a car, etc.  A simple bandaid and neosporin, or even just a roll of gauze won't cut it.

Trauma medicine just wratcheted up several notches on my "need to take" list.  Maybe before I even take "closerange gunfighting."

[Bob Mayne]

There might be a class in your area soon. Check the SI website.

[SirBrass]

There might be a class in your area soon. Check the SI website.

Will do.  I've been looking, btw.  The prices are good.

[Bob Mayne]

Tactical Medical training is good on many levels. I think that the thing we need to remember is that the reason we carry a gun is that we want to be self sufficient until the professionals get there to take over. Police, doctors, Fire and EMS can not be with all of us at every moment.

Exactly. If a person's attitude is that you most likely will go through life never needing to use advanced or tactical medical skills, then why not apply the same logic to carrying a gun?  Since you will likely never have to use it, then why carry it or train with it?  After all, you'll probably never need it because the authorities will be on the scene quickly to help right?  So next time a James Holmes enters the building just draw your gun from a static position with your strong hand and dial 911 from your cell phone with the other hand. Everything will then be alright.

So do you think that perhaps if there was at least one or two people in that theater with guns and trauma medicine training they could have helped slow down Mr. Holmes and provided some aid and medical attention that would have benefited some of the victims?  Perhaps as more facts emerge, we will find out.

[Jon Payne]

Honestly I can't tell you I would have made a difference, but I may have had a chance to fight back.  Sounds like some victims were close enough to touch this bad guy.  If you have never trained or prepared for a lethal force encounter don't sit back and think you'll rise to the occasion because you won't.  You can rise to the level of your training and if you have none, well you just may not "rise" at all. 

[SirBrass]

Exactly.  If you have not at the very least pre-planned in your mind and wrestled already with the moral and emotional conflict that will rage within you at the thought of having to engage or work under deadly conditions, then you will FREEZE when the shtf as your brain works it out then and there... and takes minutes to do so while those around you (and possibly even yourself) die.

Rule 2 of Cooper's principles of self defense:  decisiveness.  DECIDE right here and now what you will do in X situation.  It doesn't have to be 100%.  I think Shaw calls it "the 90% plan." If x happens, I'll do y, with general plan z and work from there.  You've decided on a course of action, such as "engage bad guy, seek cover, find sight lines."  Include "if I can rush him do I do so" and "when do I stop shooting or when do I not engage at all" or "if I am in a rising confrontation, what is my general plan of escape, and what is my preplanned response to each degree of escalation wherever it may start."

Play these mental games with yourself, and LET your emotions and conscience war it out so that if it happens, you've already made peace with your predetermined plan of action and all that is left is to act and to go with the flow.  Or in competition terms:  stop thinking, shoot the course and run your gun!  Thinking about it makes you slow and makes you miss.  In real life in the actual confrontation against real bad guys and not targets and no-shoots, you don't just get a -5 for hitting a no-shoot, you instead have hit an innocent, and waiting too long to engage could also get you dead.  So don't be sloppy by having to both run your gun and think this through at the same time.  PRE-think.  Like a good general or admiral, have your tactical scenarios, including the Go To Hell preplanned and pre-thought out and ready to be fit to the situation... like a quarter back's playbook.

Do that and you'll be one giant step closer to being able to prevail in the nightmare... even if you don't have a gun.

I think the entire American public should be made to read Cooper's helpful little pamphlet.  Even if they don't carry, if they take those principles to heart, a James Holmes or the next Major Hassan will have a hard time getting the kill counts their precessessors did, because people will fight back... like on that final flight on 9/11 where the passengers... unarmed as they were... rushed the terrorists and prevailed.  They were unarmed and the bad guys were armed and determined, but they lost, because the people there decided to not be sheep.  They didn't need guns... guns are just a tool (a very good tool)... it takes the guts and the courage to use the tools you have, decisiveness to act, and the willpower to prevail no matter the outcome.

So the next time a James Holmes tries something like this, or maybe it won't be a Holmes but a Major Hassan in a bomb vest instead of being armed with a Five Seven, maybe someone... he doesn't even have to be armed... will charge and say "Let's roll."

[Damian]

"don't sit back and think you'll rise to the occasion because you won't.  You can rise to the level of your training and if you have none, well you just may not "rise" at all"

Jon,

Brilliant statement.

In the ARMY we trained for things that we assumed would never happen, but if they did, we would probably be glad to have at least some training in that area when it mattered

I need lots of training and in many areas.  If you are not growing, you are dying.

[Kimerazor]

When teaching SD, we always taught everyone to decide BEFOREHAND how far they would allow someone to go before they would fight back.  Of course we wanted them to do it instantly, but they had (most did) to conclude that themselves.

All training is valuable.  Everyone must prioritize their list.  The aforementioned incident, moved tacmed into a higher position for me.


NRA Life Member
SAF Life Member
GRRN Supporter

[Bob Mayne]

Exactly.  If you have not at the very least pre-planned in your mind and wrestled already with the moral and emotional conflict that will rage within you at the thought of having to engage or work under deadly conditions, then you will FREEZE when the shtf as your brain works it out then and there... and takes minutes to do so while those around you (and possibly even yourself) die.

Rule 2 of Cooper's principles of self defense:  decisiveness.  DECIDE right here and now what you will do in X situation.  It doesn't have to be 100%.  I think Shaw calls it "the 90% plan." If x happens, I'll do y, with general plan z and work from there.  You've decided on a course of action, such as "engage bad guy, seek cover, find sight lines."  Include "if I can rush him do I do so" and "when do I stop shooting or when do I not engage at all" or "if I am in a rising confrontation, what is my general plan of escape, and what is my preplanned response to each degree of escalation wherever it may start."

Play these mental games with yourself, and LET your emotions and conscience war it out so that if it happens, you've already made peace with your predetermined plan of action and all that is left is to act and to go with the flow.  Or in competition terms:  stop thinking, shoot the course and run your gun!  Thinking about it makes you slow and makes you miss.  In real life in the actual confrontation against real bad guys and not targets and no-shoots, you don't just get a -5 for hitting a no-shoot, you instead have hit an innocent, and waiting too long to engage could also get you dead.  So don't be sloppy by having to both run your gun and think this through at the same time.  PRE-think.  Like a good general or admiral, have your tactical scenarios, including the Go To Hell preplanned and pre-thought out and ready to be fit to the situation... like a quarter back's playbook.

Do that and you'll be one giant step closer to being able to prevail in the nightmare... even if you don't have a gun.

I think the entire American public should be made to read Cooper's helpful little pamphlet.  Even if they don't carry, if they take those principles to heart, a James Holmes or the next Major Hassan will have a hard time getting the kill counts their precessessors did, because people will fight back... like on that final flight on 9/11 where the passengers... unarmed as they were... rushed the terrorists and prevailed.  They were unarmed and the bad guys were armed and determined, but they lost, because the people there decided to not be sheep.  They didn't need guns... guns are just a tool (a very good tool)... it takes the guts and the courage to use the tools you have, decisiveness to act, and the willpower to prevail no matter the outcome.

So the next time a James Holmes tries something like this, or maybe it won't be a Holmes but a Major Hassan in a bomb vest instead of being armed with a Five Seven, maybe someone... he doesn't even have to be armed... will charge and say "Let's roll."

That's some serious "thinking" right there.