Podcast about the movie theatre shooting

[ExpatBen]

The debate or caliber and stopping power of pistol is worthless.  300-500 ft. pounds is like getting punched by someone.  If you get punched by someone in a hard plate, you'll feel it, but it won't really slow you down.  These guys plan this stuff and it is the ultimate high for them.  They are so high on adrenaline that they probably won't feel getting hit at all unless something doesn't work.  It's happened numerous times that people are hit and bleeding and don't know it until someone points it out. 

Pistol rounds will crack hard ceramic plates, but not steel plates.  Either way you are more likely to get through with a higher velocity round with multiple hits.  Must plate makes suggest you wear soft armor underneath the hard armor, so you have a long way to go.  Shooting through with a pistol probably isn't going to happen without a high number of rounds (40 or 50 is a good start). 

As for hitting someone in the hands and arms.  That is more likely when you are looking at each other over your guns.  Not where I'd want to be in this shooting.  Even if he had full armor on, the shoulders are rarely armored at the sides and are a good place to shoot.  Most armor, if not all armor, is designed for the wearer to be facing the shots.  The plates overlap, have space, or less armor on the sides.  I'd call that a better bet then shooting for the hands.

The other thing no one has mentioned is that guns react badly to bullets.  If you get a hit on the rifle, chances are it won't work anymore.  But that is right there going for the hands.

The really option has to be multiple rounds and just keep shooting.  Not little groups, but walking up and down on your target.  Chest, head, gut, waist, gut, head, just keep moving your rounds up and down like a zipper.  Sooner or later you'll run out of ammo or you will find a soft spot.  The mind set is the most important thing, never give up.

[Bob Mayne]

The debate or caliber and stopping power of pistol is worthless.  300-500 ft. pounds is like getting punched by someone.  If you get punched by someone in a hard plate, you'll feel it, but it won't really slow you down.  These guys plan this stuff and it is the ultimate high for them.  They are so high on adrenaline that they probably won't feel getting hit at all unless something doesn't work.  It's happened numerous times that people are hit and bleeding and don't know it until someone points it out. 

Pistol rounds will crack hard ceramic plates, but not steel plates.  Either way you are more likely to get through with a higher velocity round with multiple hits.  Must plate makes suggest you wear soft armor underneath the hard armor, so you have a long way to go.  Shooting through with a pistol probably isn't going to happen without a high number of rounds (40 or 50 is a good start). 

As for hitting someone in the hands and arms.  That is more likely when you are looking at each other over your guns.  Not where I'd want to be in this shooting.  Even if he had full armor on, the shoulders are rarely armored at the sides and are a good place to shoot.  Most armor, if not all armor, is designed for the wearer to be facing the shots.  The plates overlap, have space, or less armor on the sides.  I'd call that a better bet then shooting for the hands.

The other thing no one has mentioned is that guns react badly to bullets.  If you get a hit on the rifle, chances are it won't work anymore.  But that is right there going for the hands.

The really option has to be multiple rounds and just keep shooting.  Not little groups, but walking up and down on your target.  Chest, head, gut, waist, gut, head, just keep moving your rounds up and down like a zipper.  Sooner or later you'll run out of ammo or you will find a soft spot.  The mind set is the most important thing, never give up.

Written by a man with real combt experience!  Much of what Ben is referring to is taught in classes like Close Range Gunfighting, Fighting Pistol, Point Shooting Pregressions and Force on Force. This is also why learning to shoot nice tight groups is not very useful other than to perfect fundamentals. Ben and will go over some of this in our BCC and I will be covering the importance of getting multiple hits in Combat Pistol Marksmanship.

[Bob Mayne]

Something else to consider. Would you rather be in the Colorado movie theater shooting situation, with. 5-7 shot gun in your pocket, or a service size or compact service size weapon the holds 10-18 rounds? 

[PoliticsAndGuns]

I know that this is being a smart alek, but if I knew I was going to be in a situation like that I would want an AR10 .308 with an infrared night scope and 3 or 4 mags... and several friends that are at least as well equipped and better trained than I am.

Now back to the real world... The Glock 17 is on layaway.

Paddle faster, I hear banjos!

[Kwah]

Paul I agree with you give me the power. :0)

[Bob Mayne]

The point is that you don't know when it's going to happen and AR 10's are hard to conceal. So given the fact we will be in a reactionary situation. Carry the highest capacity pistol you can and be well trained with it.

[PoliticsAndGuns]

I agree Bob, like I said I was being a smart A$$ and wasn't serious about the AR10. I do plan on carrying a full size Glock 17 in the near future, and then purchasing and attending training will be next on the list of things I must do.

[Bob Mayne]

Paul let me strongly recommend the G19 instead of the G17. I don't want to derail this thread, but the G19 will do nearly everything the G17 will, and much more concealable. I own both, because I can. But I like the 19 better.

[Kwah]

Guys I was was joking as well.  I am still learning how to express my self with out being face to face.  I am starting to see just how easy it is to be misunderstood.  The old joke of....  what is a pistol used for?  to fight your way to your rifle!!   Is what I had on my mind when I made my comment.....

[Bob Mayne]

No worries. Just be yourself. The rest will work itself out.

[Southern Yankee]

Ben is absolutely right. Someone may not feel several hits if the adrenaline is pumping. However, depending on the rating of the vest, those same hits could slow them down or stop them. At the very least, you may draw their fire so your loved ones can exit safely. That is the benefit of the modern +p and +p+ ammo, you get so much more energy down range. I say unload on 'em, and reload just in case. 15+ rounds of +P+ should help him lose the will to fight, even if it does not kill him. Even with SAPI plates, there is still quite a bit that is not covered. I have never understood why some people train standing still and never doing anything else. It is important, obviously, to get the basics but it is all some people do. Bob, I wish I were closer, I would love to take your class and the one you and Ben put on. I will eventually make it out there, but it is going to be a while.

Me personally, I'm not much of a wheel gun fan. I like the modern polymer pistols. 1911's are great and I will eventually own one, but for a carry weapon, it's hard to beat guns like the Glock's, M&P's and XD(M)'s. The weight, capacity, reliability and accuracy make them hard to beat. I got my hands on an SCCY the other day. I was rather impressed with it, especially for a cheap gun. It shot pretty well, but it needs a slightly higher capacity because it is too big to only hold 10 rounds.

[SirBrass]

As Doc pointed out on the last gun nation podcast, with hard SAPI plates, you can get backplate deformation that can kill by blunt-force trauma.  I assume that on the stuff he was talking about, that usually happens from direct rifle hits, not pistol hits.

Still, plates are NOT magic bullet-stoppers.

Btw, I just got my 4 boxes of Corbon 185gr +P in .45ACP (not the DPX stuff).  This stuff is trucking down range at 1185fps, and is supposed to be 543fpe at the muzzle.  I'm betting that'll stop a bad guy in his tracks if he's unarmored, or stop him and make him think if he is armored.  Either way, I figured I'll have bought some time for a good follow-up shot.

And I carry 33 rounds of the stuff ON me.

In a situation that I'm likely to encounter, I won't be able to fight to a rifle or shotgun.  The long gun will either be too far away (like in my car), or not accessible at all.  If it's at home, then I'll be going to the long-gun immediately.  The pistol is for when I don't have access to a long-gun at all, really (except the home situations), so it's a fighting pistol, not a "get me to my long gun" pistol.

[nate]

I would be very interesting if someone who had actually been hit while wearing some sort of body armor could talk about it.  For me it it 100% speculation about the physical/mental effects of being shot while armored.  If nothing else-eventually a steady rate of fire on someone, body armor or not, is going to mess with their OODA loop. I carry a Glock 22 which has 15+1 rounds.  Many people carry a Glock 17 or 19-that is 15-17 rounds in the magazine plus one in the chamber.  Within a reasonable distance, you can get those rounds on target pretty fast.

[SirBrass]

Proarms podcast has an interview from a year or two ago with an officer involved in a running gun battle.  He was wearing armor and was hit several times.  That is a very good interview to listen to.

Here we go: Proarms Episode #47 Ed Brown & Jared Reston:  http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/03/14/047-ed-brown-and-jared-reston/

[Goldenboy]

I carry either a G26 or a G19 but I only use my G19 mag for my spare because I figured if I ever needed to reload, I might as well reload with the highest capacity mag. 
I'm actually thinking about getting some G17 mags to carry as sparea even though I don't own a G17.   This way, I can have the capacity of the G17 with the concealability of a G26 or 19

[ExpatBen]

I carry the G19 with G17 extra mags.  If I have to reload I might as well have another coulpe rounds.  And for me the bigger mag hides the same, so I don't see a down side of having the longer mags.

[Iblis]

The reason that there are hits in the hands and arms is that when faced with a deadly situation, people focus on the threat. Point shooting takes over, training takes over and people will focus on the threat. The threat is in the hands. Hands will kill.