Episode 193 - In defense of the 1911 pistol

[Bob Mayne]

1911 pistols have stood the test of time, no doubt. And it seems as though they are just as popular today, as they’ve ever been. Lately, they seem to be getting a bad rap, so this week, Jon Hodoway from Nighthawk Custom joins me to discuss 1911′s in general, and why they still remain an excellent concealed carry and combat pistol. We also spent some time discussing the recent mass shootings and what it means to those of us who carry a gun every day. Thank you for downloading and listening.

Links:

www.nighthawkcustomtraining.com

[rjander3]

I do understand the negative sentiment against the 1911. Let’s face it a $600 1911 will not perform with an equal degree of reliability in comparison to a $600 polymer pistol. I’ll also have to take issue with a 40 ounce gun being an “excellent” concealed carry option. Too heavy for my tastes. But to each their own.

That said, I own two 5” 1911’s, both are reliable guns and will function with a wide range of ammo.
Let’s face it both 1911’s have way more than $1,000 into them and I’m extremely picky about magazines replacement parts, etc. It also doesn’t hurt that I have a very good friend that is probably one of the 50 top gunsmiths in the country on the 1911. Let’s face it the 1911 is an older design that requires a closer degree of tolerances and a higher degree of skill to build, maintain, and run well.

Yes, one of the 1911’s is a Kimber and no longer has any MIM parts and the chamber is reamed out to SAAMI spec. The other is a circa 1986 Norinco with two original parts.  I definitely listen to people such as Hilton Yam, my buddy Chuck and their suggestions on the platform. And it definitely doesn’t hurt that I have spent many a weekend trying new bells and whistles, grinding, polishing, blasting, sanding, refinishing, etc. on the 1911. Just because it seems like the thing to do at the time; that and learning how your gun works is never a bad investment.

On the other hand I also own and shoot a Glock 17 in matches. And let’s face it, it doesn’t get fed anything other than Glock magazines. And yes this is a Gen 4 Glock that has functioned pretty flawlessly. Which; in quantifiable terms,  means less than 6 failures in about 8,000 rounds. 1500 of those rounds were fired in one weekend on a class this year with zero failures. This was one of four, out of 20 varying firearms with no bobbles. The reason that I didn’t run the Norc or the Kimber was the difference in cost of the ammo, not that they wouldn’t finish the course. Other than 10-8 sights on both guns the Glock is run stock.

I equate the 1911’s to a custom Harley and the Glock to my BMW motorcycle. I think that this is a good metaphor in more ways than one. The Glock gets cleaned and lubed once in a while when it looks nasty. The 1911’s on the other hand require more maintenance, run well when wet, and get polished routinely. They are all different guns that require a varying degree of maintenance.

Here’s the anomaly. The worst performing gun I own is a S&W 625 Performance Center revolver. And it’s not because of the gun. The moon clips used  with .45 ACP ammo are a constant source of irritation after getting tweaked due to unloading spent cases. I don’t have a metaphoric motor bike for this one. And suggestions on high quality moon clips are welcome.

Anyway that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[nate]

I'm excited to hear the show-I always get in Handgun World Show on Monday when what i'm doing at work allows it.  I've had 3 1911 pistols, a Para, Taurus, and now own an SW1911.  I didn't shoot the first 2 enough to say much about them, but the Smith has been flawless for the first several hundred rounds-including a couple hundred at a local USPSA match.

[SirBrass]

I appreciated the repeated reinterations of "get trained!" but would've like more 1911 yammering  .  Let's get back to talking about the handguns more than the gripes about handguns.  I was looking forward to more of Hodoway and Bob talking and discussing the 1911 as a combat/carry platform, etc., etc.  Not that what was there wasn't good and beneficial... it's just that I wanted more cow bell.... err... 1911

 

[Bob Mayne]

rjander3, good points.  The 1911 works for a lot of people.  For me, it's too heavy and of course, as I've mentioned, I don't care for having a manual thumb safety to push before the gun can be fired.  Take a force on force class and you'll understand what I mean. 

However, there are plenty of people who make the 1911 work for them and quite well!  I've seen Hodoway shoot and several other people and they are good!  So if it works for you, go for it! 

As for the talk about training, let's face it.  The 1911 requires a significant amount of training to become proficient with it. And I don't mean target shooting or IDPA, I mean true combat proficiency.  So training is a natural subject blend with the 1911 pistol. 

I give credit however, that after 100 years, the design is still quite popular. 

[lee n. field]

"They quickly move into the two to ten gun range" -- that Hodoway guy.

At that point, I had to pause the audio and laugh for a bit.  So true.

[SirBrass]

"They quickly move into the two to ten gun range" -- that Hodoway guy.

At that point, I had to pause the audio and laugh for a bit.  So true.

Mostly b/c they then discover just how FUN guns are 

[Bob Mayne]

I'm one of them!

[SirBrass]

So am I. I've tried being the guy who has just his one gun and that's all he's ever shot, but...

I LIKE GUNS! B-)

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3

[markthenewf]

I give credit however, that after 100 years, the design is still quite popular.  

'Cuz they be purdy.  I likes me some Nighthawk Customs, Les Baers, and the like.  Unfortunately I am but a lowly engineer and I will just have to make do with my current arsenal!

My first pistol was a 1911 (Kimber CDPII Pro) and I still have it after 4000+ rounds.  Yes, it took getting used to, and yes a couple of parts crapped out over the years, but it still shoots like a champ and anyone who picks it up shoots well with it.  Also, it is a 4.25" barrel with an alloy frame, so it's not as pudgy as a typical 1911 but it still has decent accuracy.  All standard 1911s are inherently thinner since they're single stack, but that means you're usually limited to 8+1 rounds.  In my case, my Kimber is 7+1.

One other thing about the additional complexity of a 1911:  the thumb safety may prevent someone NOT trained with one from shooting it.

One thing I will say, a nice single action 1911 trigger really spoils you.  It took me a while to get used to my wife's XD9 and loonnng time to get sensible with a revolver.  I still suck at DA/SA triggers like on the Beretta PX4.

[SirBrass]

Mark, I was looking over my fantastic plastic guns the other day and dry firing the triggers.  M&Pc:  nicely broken in.  GLOCK G4 M17: decent.  PX4 fullsize:  UGH, gritty, and that's even after.... well... ALOT of rounds down range through it.  PX4 Compact:  Day to the fullsize's night, and this one hasn't been fired all that much (only work done was to have Beretta send me the updated recoil spring to stop the pandemic issue they had with the compact NOT feeding anything other than full pressure to +P 9mm ammo and failing to feed anything weaker).

Guess which gun I'm trading in next...

All that to say, give the PX4 Compact a try.  I think you'll like it's DA pull of it better.  Makes it easier to get used to DA/SA.

I still love the 1911 trigger the best, though.  I don't go nuts over my plastic guns (even my beloved M&Pc) like I do 1911's.

[Dave Rose]

My problem with the 1911 as left hander is that ambi safeties are in my experience no up to even moderate use. Most custom maker won't even warranty them. Sorry, that's a deal breaker.

[rjander3]

Bob,

This is my main issue with the 1911. I totally understand your take on the force-on-force training. I like to call it the "Forest Gump" syndrome. You know when you are at the match and the buzzer goes off that one time you aren't quite ready and you get stupid for that fraction of a second....yea...me to. To think that this won't happen in a high stress encounter....I don't think you are really being honest with yourself.

I don't think that the comment can be made I don't shoot enough to become proficient with the gun. Since I put about 1/3 of the 6,500-7,000 rounds I shoot a year on the 1911. 99% of the time I disengage the safety on count 3 of a 5 count draw on rotation out of the holster. It's the 1% of the time that old "Forest" kicks in that concerns me. In a match this costs me a second or two on my times. In real life the consequences are more dire.

The mental malfunctions just don't seem to happen on the Glock. This isn't a function of the gun. It's definitely a function of the shooter. The only person I can blame stares me in the eye at the mirror every morning.

Now possibly if I only shot one gun all of the time. This wouldn't be an issue. This year however my intention is to five gun qualify in IDPA as a sharp shooter. After last week. I have 3 of those 5 slots filled. The revolver is still my toughest platform to perform on. But I have found without some goals to work towards I tend to waste ammo.

Anyway my carry gun is a Kahr PM-45. No manual safeties, slim profile and small package. If you practice enough you really start to learn your limitations. I hear some of the internet commandos and all I can say is wow. If you only got to the range .....  fill in the blank.

[Kwah]

With a short exception of a job I had assisting US Border Patrol I have always used firearms with manual thumb safeties and have not had the problem you talk about in over 20 years.  I started with the Beretta 92 FS and just got good at taking off the safety, later I went to an XD and the M&P but before long went to the 1911.  I do not think about the safety any more taking it off safe is just one of the things I have to do.  It did not take me long to change from thumb up (92FS) to thumb down(1911) so I think it is more a matter of what you are used to.
I am thinking about getting a Glock 30SF but I do not foresee a problem….  Maybe I will try to take the non existing safety off the Glock??   
 

[Kwah]

I just finished the latest podcast.
OUTSTANDING!!!!!
I know it is not an exact quote but that is what I get out of it. 
Sometimes you just gotta say it like it is.  You are getting better but you SUCK…
I had a light bulb moment
I am starting to be able to see the difference between those that train, teach and do and those that spend too much time reading what others say, talking, and complaining.

[Bob Mayne]

I would carry a 1911 if they didn't weigh so much. Even the lightweight aluminum framed pistols are heavy when compared to a polymer service pistol. And because of the 1911's reliability challenges in smaller sizes like 3 or 4 inch barrel versions, that's a deal breaker for me and my lifestyle. Sometimes I have to carry a smaller gun, like the G26 on my hip right now.

The small equivalent sized 1911's have more issues than their polymer counter parts. Hodoway is correct on many things regarding poor ammo choices and lousy modifications, however.

If I want a good .45 acp I can carry a G36, XDS, M&P Compact or Kahr P45 and have pretty much the same performance as an ordinary commander sized 1911 in my opinion. And in a lighter package.

[SirBrass]

With a short exception of a job I had assisting US Border Patrol I have always used firearms with manual thumb safeties and have not had the problem you talk about in over 20 years.  I started with the Beretta 92 FS and just got good at taking off the safety, later I went to an XD and the M&P but before long went to the 1911.  I do not think about the safety any more taking it off safe is just one of the things I have to do.  It did not take me long to change from thumb up (92FS) to thumb down(1911) so I think it is more a matter of what you are used to.
I am thinking about getting a Glock 30SF but I do not foresee a problem….  Maybe I will try to take the non existing safety off the Glock??   
 

Even if you do, it'll still be part of your draw-stroke like on a 1911 or a Beretta (I own both, btw, and I've yet to have an issue taking the safety off on either of them and I often don't even think about it).

With the safety where it is, offing the safety is just a natural part of attaining a firm shooting grip, especially with the 1911.  One doesn't "forget" to off the safety, one just naturally DOES it.

[rjander3]

I'll have to agree with you on the weight, reliability and concealability points. Concealed carry in business casual environments is a challenge when measured in comparison to my weekend bike trips. I do both and there just are some occasions where a bigger gun isn't possible.

I'll also "stick to my guns" so to speak on comparable reliability 1911's to the polymer models. Albeit current CNC production overall is quite good in comparison to 20 years ago. Shorter models are worse than 5" models. Personal experience; with the 1911 in various forms, shows me that equivalent reliability will cost about 4 to 5X of the price of the Glock/Smith/fill in your plastic gun model. A 1911 isn't a drop in parts kind of design. The plastic guns are.

Greater care must be taken with the platform due to many, many deviations from the original design tolerances, with magazines, ammo, parts, etc. Bottom line is that it's been around longer and the gun has been screwed with possibly more than any other model. There are many 1911 gunsmiths but very few artists in the arena. I'm privileged to have a friend that can charge 5-7 grand for a 1911 and lots of people in line to pay it. I'm also fortunate to have soaked up over the years enough to build some pretty reliable weapons under his tutelage. Not only that, when they break, I can usually fix them.

As to you all that have never bobbled a safety. All that I can say is good for you. I have and I personally know Master Class shooters that have and do to this day on occasion. It's just now when they bobble or I bobble it takes much less time to correct the situation. But then again I never have bobbled a draw coming out of the holster on my x-box. I had to get to the range on occasion to experience the other thing.

My latest and greatest hobby gun. Collected dust in my Gun Safe for 16 years prior to the resurrection. Now shoots 1.4" groups at 25 yards off of rest and the sweatest 5lb trigger pull you ever felt. Let's see if this works.

[oldjarhead]

Enjoyed the podcast Bob. Even though Mr. Hodoway's sarcasm and ego are real hard to listen to sometimes. I own two 1911s. A Colt all stainless 1991A1 Commander, and a Kimber Ultra Covert. I also own a Glock m19 gen 4. I love them all and have carried each one of them at one time or another.                                               

The 1911 is a pistol for dedicated shooting professionals, and not for new or the occasional shooter. Not even for the new CCW holder. It takes more training and dedication to use the 1911. You both acknowledged this in the podcast. Mr. Hodoway works with Nighthawk custom 1911s, so naturally he has a vested interest in the discussion. You talked about a known instructor who doesn't like 1911s. You didn't say but, I suspect it may have been Rob Pincus. He carries and uses a polymer high capacity pistol in his videos. Usually a Glock or a Smith and Wesson M and P. I personally believe Pincus knows polymer pistols will be bought by the heavy influx of new shooters. This is because polymer pistols, like the Glock are cheaper,easier to clean,maintain and learn how to use. Pincus will make more money this way. I, like both platforms, but if I had to go to war, give me the 1911 with it's great trigger, and better accuracy.

[Bob Mayne]

I'm considering getting a 1911, but not for a carry gun.  For reason's mentioned earlier in this thread and the podcast.  Pincus isn't the only one advocating the polymer guns.  Quite a few others do too, Rob P., has stirred it up with his recent Youtube video challenge, however. 

If I knew I was going to need a handgun, in a fight and had time to prepare and think about it in advance, I'll take a 5" 1911 or a Glock 21.  Both however, are too big for me to carry, for the reactionary situation of a civilian self defense encounter on the street.   Therefore, I choose, smaller, lower cost, reliable pistols. 

I think where 1911 manufacturers went wrong is producing the small, tightly built 3" 1911's.  Those subcompact 1911's are prone to more problems than their larger counterparts.  That's a fact and even the most dedicated 1911 supporters know that.  Had 1911 manufacturers not stepped into the subcompact game, there might be different views of this platform today.

Also, that's Pincus' main point, is the subcompact 1911's.